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I'm familiar with the history, but currently there is nothing in the rules that tells us what gets transferred. Mastermind no longer uses the term, but there are quite a few references to it that remain in the latest Player's Guide and even in the new 2013 Rulebook. Unless my search-fu is weak, there's no definition and no power tells us to transfer anything.
It may not be a problem at all, but the new power, Precision Strike, is the only one on the 2013 PAC to use the term.
I won't look at your dial-on-card, I don't look at my own, and you don't need to see my DOC, ever. Otherwise, we're not playing HeroClix.
MASTERMIND
When this character would be dealt damage, you may instead choose to have all the damage be dealt to a single adjacent friendly character with a point value less than this character’s. Any additional effects of the damage dealt (knock back, penetrating damage, etc.) are applied to the character taking the damage. Damage dealt by this power is not an attack.
I also searched the standard TA lists - no transfer.
I won't look at your dial-on-card, I don't look at my own, and you don't need to see my DOC, ever. Otherwise, we're not playing HeroClix.
I also searched the standard TA lists - no transfer.
New Mutants ATA:
Whenever a character using this team ability would be dealt damage, you may give an action token to an adjacent friendly character using this team ability. If you do, deal all of the damage to that character instead.
It doesn't use the word transfer, true, but it is the same effect. It is a backwards definition where they actually spell out the definition of transfer in descriptions without using the word transfer, but those descriptions describe transferring. So for instance, for both mastermind and New Mutants, if the damage is unavoidable, which says it cannot be transferred, you cannot use those powers to redirect it.
It doesn't use the word transfer, true, but it is the same effect. It is a backwards definition where they actually spell out the definition of transfer in descriptions without using the word transfer, but those descriptions describe transferring.
That was his point. Unavoidable damage can't be "transferred", but there is currently no game effect that "transfers" damage. Mastermind "deals the damage to another character". New Mutants ATA also "deals the damage to another character". Neither of these "transfers" damage, and so, as written, you should be able to Mastermind/New Mutants away unavoidable damage. It's a valid point.
"Things which might lack clarity now will be sure to reflect those intentions."
--nbperp
Do we really need the rules to define the word "transfer" for it to apply when you actually do just that?
Mastermind tells us that if this charactar takes damage you may make a different character take the damage instead. If that isn't transfering damage I don't know what is...
It should still be used in the power. I agree with the op. There are lots of terms and wordings in heroclix that should be more consistent and clear. The term transfer is a good example of this.
Do we really need the rules to define the word "transfer" for it to apply when you actually do just that?
Mastermind tells us that if this charactar takes damage you may make a different character take the damage instead. If that isn't transfering damage I don't know what is...
I know that, and you know that. Does everybody know that? Is it intuitive enough without the term used in Mastermind's wording or defined in the glossary that a kid picking up the 2013 rulebook for the first time, having never seen Clix before, will know it?
I won't look at your dial-on-card, I don't look at my own, and you don't need to see my DOC, ever. Otherwise, we're not playing HeroClix.
I know that, and you know that. Does everybody know that? Is it intuitive enough without the term used in Mastermind's wording or defined in the glossary that a kid picking up the 2013 rulebook for the first time, having never seen Clix before, will know it?
Just out of curiosity, how do you define Transfer?
To me it is taking one thing and placing it in a different spot. Not text book definition, but I'm to lazy right now to go look it up.
The Rules for Heroclix do have a specific language of their own, but only as defined in the Rulebook. If a word such as Transfer does not have a definition clearly defined in the Rulebook then it is simply transfer. So damage that could not be transferred is simple, you cannot take that damage and transfer it to anything else.
The Rulebook does not tell me how to define the words "a" or "two" or "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious", so I would use them as normal words unless otherwise stated.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
Just out of curiosity, how do you define Transfer?
To me it is taking one thing and placing it in a different spot. Not text book definition, but I'm to lazy right now to go look it up.
The Rules for Heroclix do have a specific language of their own, but only as defined in the Rulebook. If a word such as Transfer does not have a definition clearly defined in the Rulebook then it is simply transfer. So damage that could not be transferred is simple, you cannot take that damage and transfer it to anything else.
The Rulebook does not tell me how to define the words "a" or "two" or "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious", so I would use them as normal words unless otherwise stated.
Understood, but what I'm getting at is that there are those specific game terms that we are pointed to that only certain powers call on. In this case, with nothing telling us to transfer, or what gets transferred, all of the powers that tell us to ignore transfer are sort of meaningless:
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PRECISION STRIKE
When this character makes an attack, it can’t be evaded, and the damage dealt can’t be reduced below 1 or transferred.
Mastermind doesn't say transfer, can I instead choose to have the damage dealt to an adjacent friendly, which can't be evaded or reduced below 1?
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Game effects that evade, reduce, ignore, or transfer damage do not affect pushing damage unless the effect specifically says it does.
Mastermind doesn't say transfer, so I can deal pushing damage to a MM target?
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PENETRATING DAMAGE
Penetrating damage is damage dealt that can’t be reduced (such as by the Toughness power), but can be evaded, ignored, increased, or transferred to another character.
Penetrating damage can be transferred to another character. Any other character? Can I transfer penetrating damage to the attacker?
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UNAVOIDABLE DAMAGE
Unavoidable damage is damage dealt that can’t be evaded, reduced, modified, ignored, or transferred to another character.
But can be dealt to an adjacent friendly via MM?
We know that the answer to all of the above questions is "no," but will someone reading these for the first time understand as much?
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Damage Dealt
All damage from a single effect is dealt simultaneously, unless otherwise specified. For example if two characters are both hit by the same Energy Explosion or Throw a Grenade attack, all of the damage from that attack is dealt at the same time, so any damage transfer will be combined.
Damage dealt which is transferred to another character is not considered to be from an attack, unless otherwise stated.
Unless otherwise stated, damage dealt which is transferred from a character may not be transferred back to that character at a later time.
So far, "damage dealt which is transferred" seems like the only use of 'transfer' that denotes the connotation, yet there is still nothing specific to Mastermind damage dealt. Every other use of the term is found in special powers or traits that sometimes mention MM. In my mind, tieing all those uses of the term together would be as simple as changing the last line of Mastermind to read:
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Damage transferred by this power is not an attack.
I suppose that since this is the first time it's really occurred to me to question it and that it's not even a blip on the new FAQ, this is a non-issue. It nagged at me enough to want to start the discussion, though. And while I think it may still need to be added to MM or the glossary (or both), I can accept that most people already understand the intent.
I won't look at your dial-on-card, I don't look at my own, and you don't need to see my DOC, ever. Otherwise, we're not playing HeroClix.
While HeroClix does have a very specific jargon, and you can't use defined terms like Ignore or Counter to mean whatever you want them to mean, there are other words that aren't defined because we *know* what they mean, in English. Stuff like "two" (as MisterId already mentioned).
Might it be helpful to have a definition for transfer? Sure. And I'll make a note of it. Is it, strictly speaking, required to have one? Nope. Not unless you want to start defining every other currently undefined word in the RB, too.
The Rulebook does not tell me how to define the words "a" or "two" or "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious", so I would use them as normal words unless otherwise stated.
Would you like to add this to the PG update thread or should I? There have been far too many threads about how to properly use Poppins' SP.