Replace Then Modify

Once again, a little history first. Originally, there was no order as now, i.e. replace then modify, until 2008’s Fantastic Four rulebook. Previous to that you could have modifiers happen before, during and after actions or triggers. The timing was nightmarish. For example, Shimmer, from ages gone by, had this power: Inseparable: Modify Shimmer's defense value by +2 if she has a clear line of fire to Mammoth. This caused problems because as soon as there was a line of fire, her Defence was modified. So, if you wild carded JSA and used the better defence of your ally, you lost the +2!

And, since it happened in order of application, like a perplexed defence with Defenders/JSA, you lost all modifiers because the replacement was done after it was modified!

There is now the idea that modifiers just kind of hover above the combat value, waiting to be used until they were used and then, and only then, does the rule of 3 kick in.

There was an age before the Rule of 3: We old-timers called it the Age of the Con Artist. There are a LOT worse terms for this but this is a family site (ahem…hooker bomb…ahem). The figure was a truly generic figure and was one of the cheapest sources of perplex and it was not uncommon for people to field a half dozen or so.

Now, one caveat: Every single explanation in here has one proviso attached: Unless a power or trait specifically says otherwise.

On to Explanations!
First off, I will begin in broad strokes: Whenever a combat value is changed by any game effect, the controller needs to calculate the new value; they start with the printed value, apply all replacements in their choice of order and then apply the sum of all modifiers, positive and negative, to arrive at a final result, remembering that a locked value will override any other replacement values and modifiers.

What is a replacement/modifier and how do you tell the difference between them?

First thing: What follows only applies to combat values, which are Speed, Attack, Defence, Damage and Range. You cannot modify or replace , character point value, or character number. And bonuses or penalties to single die actions, like Super Senses, Shape Change or Leadership are not modifications and, thus have nothing to do with any thing that affects replacements or modifiers (Rule of 3, Outsiders team ability, for example).

Edit: In the above paragraph, the terms 'cannot modify or replace' refers specifically to game mechanic definition and is not meant to imply you cannot use powers that grant bonus . What it means is that the game effect that does that is not a modifier or a replacement.

Any time a power, ability or trait replaces a combat value in any way, such as halving it, doubling it or changing it to a specific number; these are all replacements. Some common phrases to look for are ‘replace’, ‘becomes’, or ‘used instead’ as well as halving or doubling. A replacement may change a combat value by any amount. What this means is that the change in value is not subject to the Rule of 3. It does not bypass it, or ignore it; it has nothing to do with it.

A modifier tells you to add or subtract some value, which is indicated by the words ‘add’, ‘subtract’, ‘increase’, ‘decrease’ or ‘modify’.

The next issue is how long does the replacement/modifier apply?

Well, a good rule of thumb is that, unless it says otherwise, it is for the action that triggered it. This is offset by powers and effects say to a certain time, like beginning of your next turn, or until the end of your turn and so on.

An example of a triggering action, this is a modifier that kicks in on each use so, like Energy Shield/Deflection; Every time someone makes a ranged combat attack against that character, the modifier kicks in for that action.

Proxima Midnight begins the game with 3 Tracer tokens on this card. Proxima Midnight has a range value equal to the number of Tracer tokens on this card times 3, and has a number of bolts equal to the number of Tracer tokens on this card.

Lightning bolts can change, I get what you're saying though no replacement or modification

Didn't say that.

Adding to or subtracting from the number you have may be done with powers but it is not a modifier. Thus not subject to the rules for that

What you have in her power is a damn good example of a replacement value

What didn't you say? Cause I'm reading it as you cannot modify or replace bolts. My point is only that you say no modification or replacement of bolts but I was just pointing out an outlying instance is all where they can be altered.

Getting extra is neither a replacement or a modifier. I am using game specific terms here. Not using the proper terms, like people who still refer to Invincibility as reducing the damage by half (it ignores, not reduces), causes confusion or saying I cannot target someone because they have stealth and are in hindering, when the proper term is the line of fire is blocked (q.v. Shadow Lass's smoke cloud power) or the always popular issue of ignore, counter or can't use (which many think are the same thing)

Replacements and modifiers apply to combat values. This is not to say there are substitions for other values but they are not replacements or modifiers. An example is a character's point value considered a higher value for leadership or mastermind.

I added an edit to clarify that I am using game mechanics terms.

I never said they where replacements or modifiers in fact I agreed with you from the beginning. All I was pointing out is that there are ways of changing things outside of those mechanics that is all.

Also never did I state that you said they where replacements or modifiers. I do not know where you became confused that I did. Sorry if you misunderstood.

It took me 3 submissions before Wizkids would even touch this issue so I'm curious what you have to say. Here's the discussion so far. (sorry it's kinda long)

"1) THE RULE OF REPLACE THEN MODIFY
Whenever a combat value needs to be
calculated for any game effect, the controller
of the character whose value needs to be
calculated starts with the printed value, applies
all replacement values in any order, then applies
the sum of all modifiers to arrive at a final result.
Remember that a locked value will override
any other replacement values and modifiers."

I'm looking for clarification on how this mechanic works when you divide your damage when attacking more than one target.

"When your character targets multiple targets with
a ranged combat attack, make only one attack roll;
compare this Attack Total to every target’s defense
value. Divide the attacker’s damage value any way
you choose among the successfully hit targets."

I'm dividing my damage to calculate my damage dealt. This is a replacement value then for purposes of calculating damage dealt, right?

"REPLACEMENT VALUES
Some game effects substitute one combat value
for another. These substitute values are called
replacement values. When one value becomes or
is used instead of the value printed on the dial, it is
a replacement value. Replacement values apply to
a character for as long as that character meets the
replacement’s requirements. When a character’s
combat value is reduced by half or doubled,
those are also replacement values. Replacement
values set combat values to specific numbers,
doubles, or halves; they never solely involve adding
or subtracting. A replacement value becomes
the character’s unmodified combat value."

So I divide my printed damage value of 4 between 2 hit targets, 2 to each and that becomes my unmodified damage value for each hit target. (Replacement values set combat values to specific numbers) Then add the modifiers. But how do I add them and to which damage value if I'm calculating damage for each individually hit target?

Do they effect both?

Do I add my modifiers and then divide the sum of the modifiers? If so, do I round up? What if I hit 3 or more targets?

Do I just assign the modifiers as I choose? If so and if I have more than 3, say 6, modifiers can those be split to add 3 to the damage dealt to both targets?

"2) THE RULE OF THREE
Whenever the sum of all modifiers applied to a
single combat value is greater than +3 or less
than -3, the sum of all modifiers is instead +3 or
-3, respectively. All modifiers continue to apply to
the combat value; only their sum is changed. This
rule only applies to modifiers, not to replacement
values. Replacement values can alter the
printed combat value by more than 3 before any
modifiers apply, with modifiers still limited to a
net modification of 3 on the replaced value."

*Their response*

When making a ranged combat attack against multiple targets, after determining who was successfully hit with the attack you calculate the attackers damage value. All replacements and modifiers are calculated. That final calculated damage value is then divided up among all successfully hit targets in any way the attacker chooses. The damage value is calculated first prior to splitting the damage among the targets.

*I responded with*

"That final calculated damage value is then divided up among all successfully hit targets in any way the attacker chooses."

So my calculated damage value then gets divided, that sounds like a calculation. Why does the "Replace then Modify" rule not apply? When I divide my damage value that value is used instead of my printed damage value. Why does that not follow the "Replacement Value" rule?

"1) THE RULE OF REPLACE THEN MODIFY
Whenever a combat value needs to be
calculated for any game effect"

"Divide the attacker’s damage value any way
you choose among the successfully hit targets."

"When one value becomes or
is used instead of the value printed on the dial, it is
a replacement value."

Thoughts?

you bring up a great question

This is the only case where modifiers get divided and it really looks like they're gonna stick with "replace then modify...unless it's damage because that breaks the game".

In the case of Prime Doctor Light's (tw003b) trait, what is the order of replace/modify when using Running Shot?

Based on the wording ("at the beginning of your turn"), would the speed value already be replaced before the action during the turn (RS) is given? I didn't see an entry for Mikhail Rasputin on the WK Rules Forum, oddly enough, as his trait works similarly (but the timing is different).

You are not calculating a combat value when you divide the damage between hit targets. What you are doing is calculating damage dealt, which is not a combat value.

The timing does not matter. From the rules:

1) THE RULE OF REPLACE THEN MODIFY
Whenever a combat value needs to be calculated for any game effect, the controller of the character whose value needs to be calculated starts with the printed value, applies all replacement values in any order, then applies the sum of all modifiers to arrive at a final result. Remember that a locked value will override any other replacement values and modifiers.

So even though you activated the effect at the beginning of the turn, you don't actually calculate anything (replacement or modifier) until you need to use the combat value.

So both replacement values occur at the same time in the calculations, which means the active player can choose the order in which they are applied. And since that active player is almost certainly the one using Dr. Light or Mikhail, they should choose to halve via Running Shot first and then replace with the printed + d6 roll next to maximize the speed value.

Yes, the final result is the damage dealt, but I need to divide a value to get my damage dealt and the value that I divide IS my printed damage.

"DEALING DAMAGE
When an attack hits, the damage dealt to the target
is equal to the attacker’s damage value, modified
by any game effects."

If I were dividing the "damage dealt" then on a critical hit that extra damage would be calculated before you divide because a crit adds to damage dealt.

Unfortunately I'm the kinda guy who needs pictures with his instructions, I can read the above posts several times and will still not understand without examples. Had a former Judge who used to constantly tell me to "replace, than modify" and have still never understood it. Can't say as to whether or not I'm simply not smart enough to understand this, but definitely I am ignorant.

Anyone care to try in language that EVEN A CAVEMAN can understand? Help!!!