Who Else Is Secretly With Me?: During force construction, characters that have the Avengers keyword also have the Hydra keyword. Other friendly characters with the Avengers keyword can use the Hydra team ability.


Would they keep the Hydra keyword during the game, or is it only meant to help construct your team. Saw the question pop up elsewhere and i was curious.

They keep it the whole time.

Can you tell me why? What rule or ruling supports this? I can honestly see both sides, but without a rule or ruling, either argument isn't very meaningful

While a question to WK Rules Forum is probably best, we know from previous rulings that keywords gained during force construction do not go away after the beginning of the game. Refer to the WOL entities for this.

However, if Cap is KO'ed, then those keywords go away, since his power does not state stipulations like "until the end of the game." In fact his trait describes no explicit end, so his effects will end when he is KO'ed.

From the E&C:

Characters can only gain the Hydra keyword because of a game effect that belongs to Cap. Once he is KO'ed, the source of that game effect (him) is gone and so is the keyword.

It should be noted that if the force was a named theme team as a result of Cap's power granting the Hydra kw, even if it is lost when he is KO'ed it still remains a theme team for the rest of the game.

Don't the WOL entities keep the keyword becauss the "EFFECT" says they have it, and the" EFFECT" lasts as long as it's equipped?

I don't like that other recent characters such as Thug, WI Jessica, WI Daredevil, all indicate 'this game', while Hydra Cap doesn't, but we do have this ruling :
http://win.wizkids.com/bb/viewtopic....3be9c41#p22935

In truth, the "this game" wording is entirely superfluous to begin with. There would have to be additional wording added to make effects like these only apply during force construction. By default, anything on a character works during the game, and "during force construction" and similar wording are just there to let an effect function before the game actually starts. There's certainly nothing that says these things suddenly stop working once the game has begun.

It's not 'entirely' superfluous, as without the indication of 'this game', if the character with the effect is ko'd, the effect will end.

I'm with you.


Oh, wait ... now it's not a secret.

I'm in!

What are we talking about?

C

It gets even weirder in this scenario, as well. While it would remain a theme team no character on the force could use Theme Team Probability Control unless they already had the Hydra keyword. Additionally, if you're playing Golden Age and they have a Hydra ATA assigned to them, they would lose access to it as well.

The ruling Sassamo quotes earlier regarding Arcade and Superman (WF 17b) seems to contradict what you're all saying.

That ruling suggests that once characters get keywords during force construction that they have them for the rest of the game, regardless of whether or not the characters continues to have them or is no longer able to provide them to the character in question.

I would like to see a ruling on this but I believe that the characters that were granted the keyword at the beginning of the game during force construction would continue to have access to them even after the character that granted them leaves play (either by being KO'd or through some other method like a replacement effect of some kind).

I would like to believe that too.

All one has to do is ask the WIN to be sure.

While I stand by the logic of my initial post in this forum, I agree that the "corner case" that Sassamo linked to pretty much covers the question the OP was asking.

The ruling doesn't actually say that, though.

The ruling Sassamo linked to is checking for different sources.

They're asking if Superman loses Arcade's keywords when he is clicked to click #7 (which is a viable starting click for Arcade so I don't know why they think he would...) when Superman is the source of the Keyword gain. And while Arcade loses access to Mind Control, nothing in Superman's trait says the character has to have Mind Control its entire dial. Just that they have to have it on their starting click...which Arcade does.

And Arcade's trait has the "rest of the game" verbiage that Captain America does not.

Nothing in the ruling link contradicts anything we've said or is even in conflict.

Wasn't that ruling for Superman Prime trait, Arcade trait only gives robot for the rest of the game, the original question on WIN forums is for Superman trait (where it doesn't say for the rest of the game) to get keywords from Arcade.