Markers are removed 'at the beginning of your next turn', so if you use them, then your force is defeated, they stay there the whole game, any objections?

...yeah, no.

They would just get removed when that player's next turn would have been.

That's just a basic intent reading. Markers are not meant to remain for the remainder of the game (unless they specifically say so).

So you're saying, according to the rules, in a multiplayer game a player whose pieces have been eliminated still gets his turn. So eg, effects that take place at the beginning of each player's turn (eg Gamma Bomb) the player with no pieces still gets his turn?

No, I'm saying that any game effects which will end (or go away) at the beginning of that player's turn will still end/go away/etc.

Because a player being eliminated should not create permanent Barrier tokens/smoke cloud.

By the way, this is the most generous reading of the rules. The most restrictive would say that those tokens immediately go away (because those tokens are game elements on their force and thus they should be KO'd).

They still go away at the beginning of the player's turn, because the player still has a turn (?), there simply isn't anything typically that would happen during a turn when all your figures are KO'd.

(and most games typically have two players so KOing all your figures would've ended the game anyway.)

The quote in the first post is specifically for Multi-player games (more than 2 characters). This discussion has no impact on standard 1v1 games.

And in multiplayer, that player is removed from the turn order. I would be willing to let them stay until that player's turn would be, but a literal reading is that they are immediately KO'd.

I don't understand. When are smoker markers KOd? You can KO terrain? Where do you literally read that at? I've never heard of that.

"Removed from the game" (which is what Barrier and Smoke Cloud are typically done) and "KO" are used mostly interchangeably (except for triggering other effects).

So, when something instructs you to "KO all game elements" it is not a stretch to apply that to Barrier/Smoke Cloud tokens that have no other way of being removed.

Short answer: those tokens do not stay forever.

This is really another tournament procedure question that will likely have to be answered by the Judge running the event. The one option that is absolutely not possible is leaving the markers there for the rest of the game.

Both of the other options are reasonable. I tend to lean towards removing the markers when the player is eliminated, as they are game elements belonging to that players force (which is not a concept that matters in any other scenario, really). But I wouldn't really argue against leaving them up for their normal duration.

Again, this is the kind of thing that should be covered in a comprehensive tournament rules document.

I don't actually know if I've ever seen a ruling for multiplayer games on the WIN, but its worth a shot. Short of that, this is another "ask the Head Judge at Worlds" situation, because that's the closest thing we'll get to an official ruling.

I agree with the above info. Forgive the pedantry, but I was curious if markers would be covered under the multiplayer rules. It looks like markers count as "game pieces" and not "elements".

That said, absolutely remove markers created by a player either when the player is defeated or when the player's turn would otherwise occur. If playing for fun, choose the most fun option. If you are the judge at a tournament, good luck!

1. Tournament - I'm just curious about this. I understand the position in the other thread about tournament procedures, as the can affect running multiple games with the same force. I don't understand where it applies here. Multiplayer games is covered in the CRS. Are you saying that a 1-match multiplayer game would be run differently in a tournament versus a home or non-tournament game?

2. Game Element - I can see by a loose definition where it says game elements are what 'you play the game with' to include such markers, but it doesn't really seem to apply as in that context it is referring to what is on your force. My dice are not on my force. If I destroy blocking and place debris, is that removed when I am ko'd? Under such a loose interpretation, my map would be a game element, if I chose map and was ko'd, would I yank the map out from under all the other pieces? As a side note/question, objects(standard or not) "are" game elements. Should we be removing them when ko'd? What if an opposing character were holding our object, or had it equipped, would they just disappear? I've never seen it played that way myself, but I never really took those rules into consideration.

3. Intent - On the one hand, I can see where they could rule on intent and you would remove them at the time you 'would' normally have done so, but on the other hand I can see where the general intent is terrain changes are 'permanent', unless otherwise specified by the effect. There are other character's effects that change the type of terrain, with no stated duration or clause to remove at a given time. Would those terrain changes be removed when that character is ko'd? When that force is ko'd?

4. By The Letter versus Intent - Not specifically relevant to this thread, but something I've been meaning to ask for a while. Over time, I've notice that sometimes answers are given as "this is the intent, use this", and other times it's "that may be their intent, but this is how it's worded". This is a general question, not pertaining specifically to interactions with myself, and not specific to any 'answer giver'. What is the basis to choose between trying to follow intent versus try to follow wording?

*edit* As usual, I just want to clarify tone as being friendly and inquisitive, not 'in your(anyone's) face'.

Its not pedantic at all. The crux of the issue is that the rules don't properly cover this.

The rules don't tell you what to do with "game pieces" when a player is defeated. The rules do clearly say that player is removed from the turn order. Therefore, their next turn never occurs. And the rules can't let an eliminated players turn still happen just for the sake of these kinds of effects, because other things can still happen. For instance, something like pre-errata Uni-Mind that could let him pick new powers. If you let that players turn happen for the sake of removing the markers, then Uni-Mind's effect also would have triggered. I don't think anyone would argue any of that makes any kind of sense.

So, we just plain don't have any rule actually telling us what happens in this scenario. At which point, its on the Judge to make a ruling to keep the game functional. The most logical thing to do is have the "game elements" part of the multiplayer rule apply to "everything that player has in the game". Unless we get something from WK's directly stating that markers placed by a player remain in the game indefinitely once they are defeated, that's really the only thing that makes sense.

The very nature of tournaments vs casual play means they are run differently. In a tournament, things matter that would not otherwise matter in a casual game. Such as what the official ruling for something like this situation would be. The issue is that the rules in the CRS do not properly address some of the technical aspects involved in multiplayer games.

To be clear, I don't think anyone is saying things like debris markers should be removed. There is a big difference between something like a debris marker, which is placed by the game rules to permanently affect something, and a marker that is placed by an effect used by a player that has a duration.

No, the map is not a game piece, nor is it a game element. The map is the map.

And yes, your objects are KO'd when you are defeated. Even if a character is holding them.

It depends on the effect. When a character is KO'd, their game effects are lost, so their durations would end. If something had no duration, then no, it would not be removed. But this was about SC/barrier markers to start with, so that's what's been addressed thus far.

The issue is that the rules do not allow for the current durations to end, ever, because the player never gets another turn. So, even if you wanted to, you can't "remove them when they normally would be", because "when they normally would be" is never going to occur. Which actually goes along with your next point.

Functionality, mostly. If something is not functional as written, then you cannot play it as written. That's the whole purpose of intent. This is a perfect example of that, because the rules completely omit how to handle markers in a multiplayer game. So you have to figure out what actually makes the game functional.

Intent is not an easy thing to discern. And I totally understand why some people are not comfortable using it as a basis for rulings. But intent rulings aren't just made up. There's a lot to be taken into account, namely, pretty much every possible relevant rule and official ruling.

To be clear, when I say "intent ruling", I mean "this effect doesn't work as written, but its at least somewhat obvious what its trying to do". At which point, you have to use the existing rules as a basis to extrapolate how that effect has to work on a technical level to accomplish what its actually trying to accomplish.

WizKids issuing an "intent ruling" is essentially them issuing errata piece via hand-waving and saying "it works because we say so". Me explaining an "intent ruling" is me trying to make their game function properly on a technical level, so that everybody can be on the same page.

Removing those markers at the time the player is defeated is based on the rule that we do actually have. Removing the markers later is twisting the existing rules in a way that can cause other issues, as I've explained. The third option of making them permanent creates situations that are very obviously unintended.

On a unrelated tangent, one thing I like about Magic: The Gathering multiplayer rules is that when a player loses, everything they own leaves the game immediately. That way they can physically pick up their stuff and go home without waiting for the game to finish.

That doesn't quite work in HeroClix if the eliminated player owns the map. There are also permanent markers that get placed, such as King Aquaman's water markers:



Should those get removed? How about debris markers made by eliminated players? Those I think should stay in the game. It's too bad that there isn't a clean exit option that won't disrupt the game when a player is eliminated.

I addressed that in my previous post.