Hello all! I have a question on something that happened at Nationals.

During game 2 Kulman had a Sangan on the field and Torrential set.

Garcia special summons Chaos S and tries to remove Sanga.

Kulman responds with Torrential Tribute to destroy all monsters and gets Sangan's Effect.

Can someone please give a detailed reason why, the person could get Sangan's effect? I was under the impression that once Chaos S chooses a target it gets removed immediately.

Thanks for your time.

Chaos Sorcerer has to be on the field for his effect to take place. After the initial summoning of Chaos Sorcerer, the opponent has a chance to respond, just as if it was a Bottomless Trap Hole. Then The owner of Sangan would get his effect since it is in the grave and not on the field. But I am sure someone more knowledgable than I will be along shortly to give a better answer for this question.

This is a chain issue. Chaos Sorcerer's effect goes on the chain first, then Torrential Tribute goes on the chain. When resolving Torrential destroys Sangan and Sorcerer then Sorcerer's effect tries to resolve and can't. Btw Sorcerer doesn't need to be on the field for its effect to resolve, its target just still needs to be there.

Also, that's not true. If "Bottomless Trap Hole" had been activated instead of "Torrential Tribute", "Chaos Sorcerer" would be removed from play, and then "Sangan" would've been removed via "Chaos Sorcerer"'s effect.

Rather, it's just as Androfrost pointed out: "Torrential Tribute" is the last card activated, and therefore the first to resolve. When "Chaos Sorcerer"'s effect attempts to resolve, the selected "Sangan" is no longer on the field, and can therefore no longer be removed from play. So, "Chaos Sorcerer"'s effect disappears.

However, that's not the case. Priority gives the turn player the chance to activate an Ignition Effect before the opponent can activate anything.

Activate =! (does not equal) Resolve

So, even though "Chaos Sorcerer"'s effect is activated and "Sangan" has been selected, the effect hasn't actually done anything yet. You need to wait until resolution to happen, and the effect cannot resolve until both players are finished adding effects to the chain.

So, in the original scenario provided, the turn player's opponent responds to "Chaos Sorcerer"'s effect with "Torrential Tribute", and then neither player has anything new to add to the chain.

So, resolution looks like this:

Chain Link 2 resolution: "Torrential Tribute"'s effect destroys all monsters on the field.

Chain Link 1 resolution: "Chaos Sorcerer"'s effect looks for the face-up "Sangan"; however, the effect disappears, as the face-up "Sangan" is no longer on the field.

I hope this clears things up for you!

Kenjiblade: Thanks for the explanation. That was great.

My team and myself were confused because we were thinking a person can not chain since Torrential is the beginning of the chain. So know we know that you can respond to removing. Its almost similar to Book of Moon my monster with the destruction.

This is also the heart of Priority. When Chaos Sorcerer is summoned, you only have priority to "activate" his effect, not resolve it. Several things can happen to Sangan before Chaos Sorcerer's effect can remove him from play.

Compulsory Evacuation Device
Book of Moon
Divine Wrath
Interdimensional Matter Transporter
Assault on GHQ
etc...

Because his effect starts a chain, any response from the opponent becomes the next link in that chain unless they choose NOT to respond.

CS's effect is spell speed 1 so it's valid to chain TT since it's a spell speed 2..isn't that the simplest explanation?

Only if you dont like to know why, and dont care for anyone else to know.

Unfortunately, that's not really an explanation for this situation. Sure the spell speeds are correct, but, as others have pointed out, priority and activation vs resolution are the main subjects that are needed to properly explain the series of events.

did'nt say it is the clearest/most elaborated explanation but rather the simplest explanation. it is a discussion of summons and chains..upperdeckentertainment.com under advance game play.

and I had though that Torrential can only be used aganist sorcerer summoning, and only this time until its last thing that happened, so sorcerer is unable to use effect and Last will is protection from bottomless/torrential caused by shuffle is last thing that had happened.

no, see things like TT that respond to something can be used anywhere in a chain as long as they respond to the last thing that happened.

so when they summon CS and use priority to activate his effect, the last thing to happen was still the summon, because the effect hasn't resolved. this is the same reason you can chain magic cylinder to mirrror force, since the attack declaration is still the last thing to happen.

now on the last will thing, you may have a point, i would have assumed that you could still respond to the summon, but the fact that the last thing to happen was shuffling the deck may cause a timing issue.

perhaps kenjiblade could enlighten us.

Last thing to "happen" != Last thing to "resolve."

Decks being shuffled don't count for causing things to miss the timing. Monsters being summoned, etc., do.

Maybe he meant "Shuffle your Deck until time runs out..." lol That would DEFINITELY miss the timing!

Game Mechanic's don't cause missed timing.

actually, shuffling the deck is a part of the effect. it should be equivilant to when a darkworld monster is discarded by the opponent's effect. then the dark world monsters effect is to summon it then do something else. this is nearly identical to last will, you summon the monster then do something (shuffle the deck) it is still something that happens after the summon so it should prevent you from responding to the summon since its not the last thing to happen. and since the shuffle is a part of the effect it is something that "resolves"