From what some of the Atlanta players have said, a ground-based deck is not the way to go for competitive constructed play. They've cited that Tavang-Damir slows down ground drains so much that it's not worth it to commit to ground.

Personally, I've been scared away from ground with Tunnels and Waylaid. But that's just me.

Any other thoughts?

well I make it painfully obvious why ground is a bad idea against me, as mav vehicles plus nobots = quickly finished off ground units. if not toss em onto ships for forfeit and kill the ship with the annoying shi dude.

(hopes for a card to protect drains to a point aka maybe your drains on ground cannot be modifies while you control 3 battlegrounds Hmmm???? ideas people like hopefully decipher has already thought of this and we will get it as a no faction cards in NTH

Well for me, the ground is the only way to go. With the way my Earther deck is designed, it can cause so much attrition against other ground decks it is tough to beat. The space portion of it, is just there to fight a delaying action until the ground units gain control.

However, all of that being said, I have not played against Tavang-Damir. I have played my Earthers against a Shi-Gongen deck that was ugly and against a Gongen-Maverick deck that was really a close match. I played a mostly ground Gongen deck against a wicked Earther deck of my buddies and it was not even close. I have yet to play against a Quay deck.

My opinion is that any deck can provide good chances to win if executed right.

Some more thoughts on this. After looking at the cards you mentioned I have some theories.

I play with 4 FLICS and 4 Collabrative Strikes. The way I see it is that I have as much chance to get 1 of each of those deployed/played for a battle as my opponent does to play Waylaid. Maybe more with Waylaid being a rare and mine being commons. My +4 to Power is probably going to be just as good as the Waylaids negative. Plus I get a +4 to my defense which can greatly reduce the number of units/cards I might lose if I lose the battle.

Tavang-Damir doesn't hurt my deck as much with it's focus on battles and attrition. I do not set-up trying to cause massive drains to my opponents. I don't rely on them in other words to win the game. I think any deck that relys on battles and not draining will not have a problem with ol' Tavang.

Tunnels to me is just like a couple of cards from SWCCG - Elis Helrot and Nabrun Leids. They allowed movement at any time being an interrupt. Tunnels is a bit different because it's success depends on a destiny draw depending on how many units you are trying to move. With a high destiny deck or deck manipulation this becomes easier. However, once again if you move to attack me, then you might have to face a Collabrative Strike(s) being played and my high attrition. I will say however that Tunnels is a great way to get around an Entrenched Infantry at a site that you would rather not deploy too. Deploy elsewhere, then play Tunnels, move your units and then attack me. Counter - counterpoint is that I can have a Juggernaut tender or Infantry support vehicle 'react' to a battle and move my own forces which are not dependent on destiny to succeed.

Those are some thoughts from the Earther side of things. These tactics should work for other factions too, especially against Tavang.

the problem they are stateing is that the shi just do not come to ground

Hmm... in theory, I'd like to agree with you on this statement.

In practice, a deck that can Guarantee an early Tavang and can get out Ganymede Sector in a reasonable amount of time will give a deck that doesn't focus it's ground drains or compete in space fits.

Basically, to beat the dominant Shi space/Tavang deck, you've got to be able to knock Tavang out of the air (and not get the tar beat out of you by Quarrels and reacting Ranarti on Zocho or the Vatarva-Sudeva), drain big at a couple of sites, or drain at locations scattered across the solar system (so that Tavang can't reduce 'em all).

In my experience.

novafire: these are good thoughts. but at the moment, most of the ground sites are at ganymede. that means that with tvang in space at ganymede/traginium source, all your drains go down. since most space decks just give up the ground, it turns into a drain race. unless you can unseat tvang from space, you'll lose the drain race and thus the game, since you won't be smearing that many units on the ground.

in response to the_elf, i won't play ground. i've only made one ground deck for my friend, and that focused on weapons. (see it on essential wars. i needed to make it there because it had the new cards in it's database.) with tvang in space, ground just can't win right now.

Exactly right. You can have all the ground power and attrition adders in the world, it won't do you a lick of good. Shi space doesn't go to ground.

They don't have to come to ground, because Tavang limits drains so much. You have to have the 2/2 ganymede sites out to even drain for one on Ganymede when they're set up (or else get the Coreshaft out with units from multiple factions to get the +2 drain bonus to kick in). That, or get Alnak down (she basically turns off Tavang's ability, except at her own site).

-S

Hey, Elf... address this comment for me? :D

I think my ground schooled your Tavang deck in the last game we played, did it not? ;)

Not that your deck isn't good, mind you... I just know that the statement above isn't unilaterally true.

it's not always true. i know that. but in most games, tvang will limit the drains enough to make a difference. and without alnak or a drain deck, tvang may be a game winner.

No, I was owned. :D And I'll be happy to admit that. Tavang doesn't do well against concentrated drains. And I think that the only way to pull the concentrated ground drains off is with Mavericks using Two-Way, Cartel Legates, and an occasional Fuel Theft.

Though, I'm hoping that the adjustments that I'm making will properly handle a one site, concentrated drain problem.

Ok, I'm beginning to see some of the points you are making. It sounds like Tavang at Ganymede is the problem then. He reduces all the drains at Ganymede 1/1 sites to nothing and 2/2 sites to 1.

Well I know a few things I do and some others that I will start doing.
1 - include more 2/2 sites for Ganymede.
2 - Do not include Ganymede - don't include it in my deck for the opponent to use. It will be in his deck if he really needs it out.
3 - include space in your deck.

1 and 2 are pretty sound. 3 is the tricky part. I have had what I thought were decent contingents of space in my deck only to get them trounced by Shi space. All that Quarrel "damage this, damage that and destroy a third" gets really annoying. I have typically tried to counter with lots of Type IVs and Escort Cruisers. That attrition thing once again, but those Quarrels are really tough in battle. Something that I have recently added are weapons for my ships. Grade 7's and Longbows both add killer attrition. They can both add enough to start making an opponents pondering what to forfeit, Quarrels or Tavang.
However, a few that just occured to me is possibly to take the fight to Ceres and locations on Ganymede. With Ceres and Earther ships with weapons on them, I still get some attrition even with a -2 destiny. The Shi don't get that same benefit. Something for myself to ponder. With Traginium Well and Unstable Ground, I can make a crude unit recycling system that will cost my opponent some energy. I deploy a unit to the Well, he pays 1 for each unit. I then move them to Unstable ground. Next turn I drain for 1 or 2 depending on the Tavang situation and then I return a unit to my used pile. This would cost me energy to keep moving them around after deployment but it also reducing the opponents active pile and gives me a solid drain bonus. Also if a strong Shi space deck does try to send someone down to battle me, then that unit is gone at the end of his turn.

Something else I might start doing is returning to putting Type II fighters in my deck. If we have to fight at Ganymede, or Ceres for that matter, then I get a +2 to power and defense.
I was doing this at the beginning of the game scene but stopped in favor of less expensive options.
The Gongen could compete somewhat with Tamon being deployed at an opportune time and Amorian shipyards and lots of fighters.

Bottomline I guess is that there is no easy answer for the Shi uber space deck. I think battling in space while controling the ground is about the only way to do it. What to battle with is another question entirely. Another Shi deck is great but boring. When Tavang buys the farm, all of those ground units start draining on the next turn, unless another Tavang pops out.

Ok, enough rambling for now.

You're on to something with using your opponent's energy. In fact, if there was a way to swing a debilitating strike to a Shi Space deck, it would be to deprive your opponent of the 2 energy required to react into battle with Ranarti. Taking saved energy from your opponent would also hinder Anant Aeronaut, but would do nothing for your for the Quarrel Energy Bursts.

I've considered Ilna Hektons and Volt Scrounges for defeating Shi Space with saved energy to react and blow stuff up. However, Volt Scrounge is fairly expensive to pull off, and going through those motions will give your Shi opponent a clue as to what you're planning while you setup. You also have to consider the Shi player adapting for space. If I smell space, I'll put on the brakes, and play a lot more conservative. If it looks like I'm up against ground, I'll throw that quarrel out there first turn to get a drain of 1 or more going right off the bat.

After deliberating on this for a bit, I have another thought that is none to good. While messing with my deck on here for a bit to put in the Trag Well strategy I began to think for it to really work, I will probably need multiple copies of the cards concerned to do it. Doing that of course takes away from other things. After all that, my thought is this; I can design a deck to defeat an uber Shi space deck, but that's about all it can do. Therefore, maybe the design should start with an ultra Shi killer and then backoff from that until you get a deck that's a bit more diverse, such as being able to do some things on the ground. This deck couldn't lose focus with it's primary duty though. Maybe the goal should be to stop all space decks, throwing in a few cards for Shi purposes only and some ground cards too. I honestly don't believe the cards yet exist to defeat a Shi deck and be good at something else too. The current cards just aren't that efficient at doing some things.

I could be wrong on this one. Definately not the first time.

Nova,

I was going to make the same comment about the strategy you came up with - too narrowly focused to be feasible in a broad competitive environment.

Now, as I mentioned, I think that there are some ways to beat the Shi space, Ranarti/Tavang special. As I mentioned, I did beat the_elfs (which is a pretty solid build) by a reasonable margin. The deck will also do reasonably well against focused ground decks.

Not saying it doesn't need tweaking... but my point here is mainly just that there are ways to beat the Ranarti/Tavang deck without gunning solely for it. You just have to look around a bit (oh, yeah, and I know you don't want to hear it, but... you also can't play primarily Earther.) :D