ok, I used to run a Quiz deck, and I put it together, just for fun. So, I'm dueling a friend of mine, and I activate the Gather your mind spell card. As I look through my deck, I notice all three of my toon table of contents, and my reversal quiz, are all together. I began to seperate them, and my friend asked me if it was cheating. I don't think it is, because I shuffle my deck thouroughly afterward, so it's not like I'm stacking, but at the same time, I am manipulating how my deck is piled up. Is this legal?

It should be, and if he doesn't like it, he can shuffle it again as well.

Actually that would be stacking your deck. Anytime after you present your deck on game one, that you seperate cards while searching it is considered stacking. I know most judges/players don't count this as stacking but in the rules you can't do that. Most people just pile shuffle there deck if they see certain cards stuck together.

D.D.

Well, I guess I'm part of the "Least Judges" that do count it as Stacking. :devious:

At anytime you sequence your Deck to manually place or change a natural ordering that occured due to a legal shuffle, whether it's before you leave home, before the start of a Match/Game, or inbetween Rounds, it is considered manipulating your Deck, which is illegal to do.

The only time I do not have a issue with "localizing" cards into the Deck is when a player is resolving the effect of Pot of Avarice. I would much rather see them randomly shuffle the cards face-down and place them in the Deck (while still face-down) at different area's, than to group them all together and place them on top and shuffle. That almost guarantees that at least 2 or 3 of them will most likely still remain as a group unless the player Pile Shuffles afterwards.

Would it still be stacking if the cards were say stuck togetherand you seperate them, like the sleeves and what not, also is double sleeveing legal?

But if they stack it at home, you wouldn't really know, would you ? I thought that was the point of shuffling thoroughly, so that the deck couldn't be stacked, even if it was beforehand at any given point. And also the reason why I don't see any issues with this, because if thoroughly shuffled afterwards, the deck still isn't "stacked".

I've never had it happen to me (yes people tell me I draw unnaturally average hands), but in his situation I'd think of doing the same thing. After all isn't that the point of shuffling after you search your deck ?

Here's the thing, if there is an effect that allows you to alter the deck to your preference then that is one thing, and you must abide by it. If you are just altering the deck's order because it does not suit your tastes for whatever reason, that is stacking, and we know this is not allowed.

What possible reason is there for moving the cards in the first place? Moving them further apart from one another is not randomized since you are actually looking where they are being placed.

This type of practice should be heavily discouraged, and if repeated during a tournament can lead to a penalty.

It isn't stacking. It is legal to move your cards during a legal search as long as your opponent is allowed to cut your deck as the final deck act. After opponent cuts thats' IT!!!

And then you shuffle ...

So you don't know where they were placed ...

I don't get the issue.

Unless you let him cut again. But then that would be stalling ...

I don't know where you got your information from, maybe it was Wikipedia or something, but it surely wasn't the UDE Tournament and Penalty Policy, which explicitly explains that it is forbidden to manipulate your Deck by rearranging the order of placement of the cards in your Deck without an effect that allows you to do so.

Shuffling due to a Search is a Game Mechanic, not a "effect". There is no effect that allows you to

Deck of Instant Suspension
"Search your Deck for any card. If while searching you notice you have 2 or more similar cards grouped together, rearrange those cards so that you have changed their placement and then Shuffle the Deck."

If you are physically looking at the card you are moving, then it is manipulating the order of your Deck without the aid of an effect. That is what "shuffling" is supposed to prevent, which is why you aren't allowed to shuffle your cards face-up, even while Convulsion of Nature is active.

Definitely going to get sigged.

So you place the cards. Turn your deck over. Shuffle face-down. How do you know where the cards are ? This is the point of shuffling, that regardless of the order of your deck, it is randomized again. This is also why the oppenent gets to cut.

And your example of a card is fairly ridiculous, you can't have an effect that organizes and then have it followed by shuffling. That's sort of the point we are trying to make here. It can't be considered stacking, if the deck is randomized.

You missed the point entirely and explained my point at the same time. You can't have a player purposely changing cards in his Deck when he is supposed to ONLY be searching for a card.

There is no effect that allows you to just simply look at your Deck and if you don't like how the cards are arranged, to change it. The closest thing to that is Pigeonholing Book of Spells, and a few other cards, but they only direct you to change a "finite" number, and not your whole Deck.

This isnt a case of semantics. You can't arrange the order of your Deck however you like it, just like you can't change the placement of your Monster, Spell, and Trap Cards once they are placed on the field without an effect. Why do you think cards like Wandering Mummy have a purpose if player's can just decide they can do whatever they like? Explain why that is ridiculous.

If you think your cards are too tightly grouped after viewing your Deck, then shuffle it as many times as you can in the time limit you have for shuffling. This doesnt have to be a debate. Its a rule that is very clear.

And you seem to blatantly ignore my points. The reason you can't rearrange cards on the field, or in an unshuffled deck is obvious. It arranges them in an order you know, or is more convenient for you, and altering the game. When you change cards in your deck and then shuffle, then you have no such information or convenience. In fact, for all you know, those cards could be grouped back together again.

When you look through your deck and take a card, you alter the deck, because you can look through the entire deck and pick whichever one of the cards, if you have multiples, you want. If you find that the insect knight located between doom dozer and megamorph is more convenient, its pefectly legal to take that one, which groups them together, and allows you to possibly draw both in sequence to win the game. But then you shuffle, tp prevent that sort of thing.

Its no different when something, purposely or accidentally gets rearranged in the deck, because shuffling just randomly rearranges it anyway. THATS WHY WE HAVE SHUFFLING.

Now don't get me wrong, I won't utter a word about whether you ACTUALLY can or not. I've not had the pleasure of reading many shuffling disputes. I'd be tempted to trust you that you can't actually (barring the megamorph farce I trust your judgment fairly well), but I surely don't see why you couldn't.

Shuffling is there to keep it honest.