What i'm looking for actually is more elucidation on the "you can only control 1 of this card" mechanic like with grandmaster of the six samurai and Gravekeeper's chief. If you use reasoning, you pick up cards until you reach a monster that can be normal summoned. Now say I have a grandmaster on my field, and I pick up and I reach a second grandmaster, what happens ?

1.Grandmaster can be normal summoned with another grandmaster out, it would just be destroyed because i can't control two of them.

2.Grandmaster can't be normal summoned because I already have one, so I keep picking up cards because it doesn't meet reasoning's requirement.

All cards will be sent to the graveyard, including the second Grandmaster.

Thanks, that's what I thought. So I can normal summon him under that condition, he would just be sent to the graveyard when he is.

This is not a case where you are "choosing" to Special Summon him, like you would Call of the Haunted or Premature Burial. Reasoning or Monster Gate have no target. Whatever monster fits the requirement gets summoned, and since Grandmaster of the Six Samurai cannot exist on the field with another Six Samurai, it would just be destroyed after the effect of Reasoning has resolved.

It's a similar situation to if you pick up a spirit monster with reasoning (or another monster that cannot be special summoned). It meets the requirements, but because you are prevented from special summoning it, it goes to the grave with everything else.

No, I think masterwooo's statement is more correct.

Because if it was the case that grandmaster could not be special summoned under this condition, then it would also imply he could not be normal summoned under that condition, so he does not meet the requirement and I would keep looking for a new monster. The fact that reasoning stops and dumps grandmaster in the grave has to imply he can be normally summoned in that situation, yet he simply cannot co-exist and is thusly destroyed. Thats not the case with a spirit monster, which meets the requirement but cannot be special summoned.

That's what I said. Grandmaster meets the requirement because he is a monster that can be normal summoned (just like a spirit monster). But you are unable to special summon him, so the effect ends and he goes to the grave with everything else.

Reasoning, doesn't look at the current situation, it just looks for a monster that is allowed to be normal summoned. Once you find such a monster, you attempt to special summon it, and if you can't it goes to the grave with the over picked up cards. Grandmaster has a similar situation to spirit monsters.

I don't think he is summoned and then destroyed. I think he is not summoned at all.

No, no, no, read this very carefully now :

Spirit monsters : Can be normal summoned, meet the requirement. Cannot be special summoned. But Reasoning resolved, all cards are sent to the graveyard.

Grandmaster : If you say he cannot be special summoned THEN HE CANNOT BE NORMAL SUMMONED EITHER as the condition preventing one is the same condition that prevents the other. If that was the case, reasoning would not have met its condition and permitted me to look further.

For this reason we can state that grandmaster CAN indeed be normal summoned (so far we are in agreement), and that in turn would also mean he could be Special summoned (since the same conditions that prevent it from being summoned one way, keep it from being summoned the other, so neither is plausible with this ruling). So he is in fact special summoned, and then destroyed due to the condition that no two can exist on the field.

That's how I see it happening. The effect of Reasoning isn't optional. Whatever monster can be summoned, is attempted to be summoned. Once the effect of Reasoning tries to resolve by Summoning Grandmaster to the field, Grandmaster's Card Text kicks in and notices that there is already a Grandmaster face-up under your control, and the one trying to be placed on the field is then destroyed by Game Mechanics, and sent to the Graveyard.

If this where a situation where you were resolving Return from the Different Dimension, since you would be selecting all eligible cards that can be summoned, under this condition, once you summoned the first Grandmaster, the second would then be ineligible to be summoned.

The way I see it, is that yes reasoning recognizes a the grandmaster as a monster that can be normal summoned, and therefore ATTEMPTS to special summon it. But it cannot special summon it because there is already a grandmaster on your field. It CANNOT be special summoned, and goes to the graveyard. It is never summoned at all because it can't be.

It wouldn't be summoned and then realize it can't be there, it's condition would prevent it from being there in the first place.

masterwoo0, given you're example of RftDD, after the first grandmaster is summoned, you state yourself that the 2nd becomes ineligible to be special summoned. If he is ineligible to be special summoned, then he wouldn't be summoned at all, and would remain removed from play.

It never said you couldnt summon Grandmaster. It says that you can ONLY have one on your side of the field. That does not insinuate that a second one cannot be Set, or summoned...

As for RftDD, the effect itself says "Summon as many as POSSIBLE". It doesnt say you must summon every monster, so that means that if you already know you cannot summon Grandmaster because you have one face-up already, then you would summon what you can, or as many as "possible".

But phiefer, that doesn't make sense the way you explain it.

1.You say it cannot be special summoned, correct ? You say this because I can't have 2 grandmasters on my field.

2.If point 1 was true, that also means that Grandmaster cannot be normal summoned, are you with me so far ? Since the same restriction that keeps it from being special summoned would keep it from being normal summoned.

3.So when reasoning picks up grandmaster, if your explanation was correct, it would not recognize grandmaster as a monster that can be normal summoned and keep looking. That is not the case.

Belgian, you aren't listening to me. Reasoning does NOT CARE ABOUT THE CURRENT SITUATION. It cares about the monster in general. Is grandmaster a monster that can be normal summoned? yes. you can normal summon him. Think about it, if I already normal summoned a monster this turn, does that mean that reasoning doesn't recognize any monster. No, because reasoning doesn't care about he current situation, just the general facts about the monster.

So Grandmaster meets the requirements because he doesn't say "This card cannot be normal summoned", nor is it a ritual monster, therefore it can generally be normal summoned. That is why it meets reasoning's requirements.

Once it has met the requirements, reasoning attempts to special summon it, IF IT CAN. This does care about the current situation, because this is an action, and reasoning can't perform an action that can't be done.

And masterwoo0, I all it has to do is say that you can't have more than 1 on the field. If you have 1, can you normal summon a 2nd and let it be destroyed? No, because you can't have more than 1. That restriction would also mean that you can't summon it if you already have one, because then you would have 2 and that can't be done.

That would work if you were summoning him manually. But he is being mandatorily summoned by an effect that doesnt give you an option.

If you're opponent has a Grandmaster, you can Snatch Steal him and your opponents Grandmaster would be destroyed. It wouldnt be a situation where Snatch Steal can't resolve or Snatch Steal gets destroyed.

Yes, on top of that, I'll have to look it up again when I have more time, i do remember one or two situations on the old LV1 judge list that said you were able to special summon gravekeeper's chief and then it was destroyed. I remember because they emphasized its always the new one that gets destroyed.

I just asked the question out of curiosity now, it doesn't often happen that you have to set off reasoning with a grandmaster already on the field, but it could be very relevant when Councillor enishi is released and you just need that extra samurai in the grave.