Okay guys this thread is inspired by one I posted in on the P-Site in which I've encountered some closed-minded individuals with very poor discussion skills.

The topic is Which one is better in Zombies Deep Sea Diva or Krebons and Teleport?

Let me start the thread by listing all the pros and cons of each.

Krebons/E-Teleport

Pros
Dark and therefore Allureable
Can stall for a time and maybe buy you the extra turn you need.
Searchable through Mystic Tomato.
E-Teleport
Gets under Bottomless

Cons
You typcially don't want to draw it and when you do it isn't as effective apart from stalling.
The stalling effect is not effective in a format with a lot of removal and mass destruction.
Apart from stalling it does little else on it's own.
You gain no real card advantage through it's use even with teleport.

Deep Sea Diva

Pros
Instant pluses once it's summoned
It does the same Job as e-teleport but on it's own.
Maining multiple copies is like maining multiple copies of e-teleport and Krebons except with less deck clutter.
Requires fewer slots in the deck. (Two minimum, three maximum)
Can lead to OTK's easily.
Gets under Bottomless
Gets Under Trap Hole ;)

Cons
Isn't dark
Drawing multiple copies sucks (This is easily remedied through plague)
Very low attack (can be a Pro a lot of the time though)

In my opinion I have to side with Diva. I've been playing it for months and I have to say that it is an amazing Tuner.

So guys lets discuss this.

Excellent question. It's definitely a close call...

Right now I'm leaning towards Krebons. I think it has more utility outside of the best case scenario. Comparing the play of double Diva'ing into Brionac/Goyo/Catastor/whatever with Teleporting into Krebons seems fairly pointless. Obviously both are great plays. If you can always pull stuff like that off, it doesn't really matter which you pick. You'll probably win regardless. With that said, the following are the pros/cons that you brought up that seem the most relevant.

While Diva is prehaps more explosive (although the fact that is takes up your normal summon leaves that statement up for debate), it is very one-dimensional. Krebons, on the other hand, is a repectable drop by itself and further synergizes with Allure, Tomato, Grepher, DAD, and Caius in addition to Teleport.

The question in my mind now, is whether Plague is enough to ensure that Diva hits its best case every time. I'm skeptical, but it isn't impossible.

A very good opinion as I would come to expect from members of this site. The thing is for me when I would run Krebons all he would be used for the majority of the time was for Allure bait and not much else outside of Synchro summoning. Whenever I tried to use it to stall with, my opponent would just blow it up, book it, or bounce/spin it. Krebons by itself is not as good as many people make it out to be.

I mean I would much rather special summon Goblin Zombie with Mystic Tomato's effect, as I would rather dump something more worthwhile than Krebons with Dark Grepher's effect.

DAD is understandable, but you also already run more than enough dark monsters for him, that and it's only One card out of Forty.

Caius can be tribute summoned through better means imho. I mean I would much rather do tomato into Goblin Zombie and then tribute Goblin Zombie for Caius while getting a card in hand than summoning Krebons and paying life for pretty much the same result.

The main benefit for krebons is it's use with Emergency Teleport, which Diva does on it's own and with less clutter. I guess the basis for my opinion is that even though Diva is more one dimensional than Krebons in terms of use, Krebons' extra uses aren't really that considerable. Granted they are more than Diva's, but in the end the ability to Synchro quickly and gain advantage easier is what has me siding with Diva over Krebons.

Well any good Zombie build will want to get Plaguespreader to the Grave as quickly as possible so it is not rare that it does happen. I actually believe that it is enough to do so, not only that, but when you do stack Diva with plague it leads to an even more explosive result.

This is a good point. I haven't tried Diva out yet in Zombies but it is definitely nice to be able to stack your second copy back on top of your deck with Plaguespreader Zombie. Since Zombies can spam onto the field like no other it's highly likely that you'll be able to use your Divas in the same turn you use Plaguespreader Zombie and push for the win.

I just want to take a look at the number of Darks that Zombies run to see how much they'd be affected by losing two Krebons, it looks like there would still be somewhere around 13 Dark monsters in the deck.

1 Dark Armed Dragon
1 Gorz the Emissary of Darkness
1 Tragoedia
2 Goblin Zombie
2 Destiny Hero – Malicious
1 Dark Grepher
1 Sangan
1 Necro Gardna
1 Plaguespreader Zombie
1 Destiny Hero – Doom Lord
1 Mystic Tomato

I do appreciate your point about Krebons not staying on the field. There is a ton of removal in the game today so the majority of the time you probably aren't going to be activate Krebons effect. With that side Krebons is infinitely better in the late game than Diva since it has a chance to stall out your opponent if they are top decking where Diva is more of a one off defensive shield (if you are running three copies and there aren't any left in your deck).

Bah work made me lose my train of thought. More later if I remember what I was trying to say.

Relying on it to stall, except as a last ditch effort is a bad idea no doubt. That's not why you're running it though. Furthermore, the fact that your opponent recognizes it as enough of a threat to use removal on it is already a small win.

Perhaps, but what if you're holding the Goblin Zombie. Now grabbing Krebons with Tomato opens up options.

And of course you'd never dump Krebons with Grepher, but you can discard to dump your crucial Plaguespeader. Similarly, if you've already used Teleport, but are still holding a Krebons, Grepher still gives you the option of turning Krebons into a Gardna or Malicious in addition to normal summoning it for a Synchro summon.

As for Caius, you'd never summon Krebons off Tomato with the plans to tribute, however, normal summoning him to stall/attack now becomes an even better play. With the looming possibility of a Caius follow-up, finding removal for Krebons becomes even more important.

As for DAD, yeah, it won't matter often, but the synergy exists.

None of these cards are the main reason to run Krebons. Explosive plays off Teleport is the main reason. The fact that these situations can occur it what makes Krebons the pick over an equally explosive card.

Understandable. The point is, however, that Krebon's utility should only be overlooked if you can always ensure that you'll have situations to take full advantage of Diva. Because I submit that you won't, the fact that you can make additional plays with Krebons becomes relevant.

Of course a good build will dig out Plaguespeader one way or another very quickly, but that doesn't necessarily means you'll have all the tools to get out of a sub-optimal hand [two Divas]. First of all, just because you can dump Plague fast, doesn't mean its still in your graveyard. Its entirely possible that you've already used and removed it. This means you also have to have drawn Burial.

Now let's assume that one way or another Plaguespeader is indeed in your graveyard. You spin a Diva to summon Plague then normal summon a Diva, grabbing the second off the top of your deck. You now have three tuners on the field, no other monsters, and no normal summon. Now granted, if any deck can find a use for all three tuners, DHZ can, but that's doesn't mean those tools will anyways be there. None of these situations are rare, by any means, however, over the course of a 7+ round tournament, it is very possible that you'll drop a game or 2 for this reason alone.

The fact remains that Krebons is respectable by himself, and gets better alongside other cards. Diva just relies on other cards. Generally, cards that rely on other cards aren't inherently unplayable. In fact, they're usually even more explosive (I'd say this case is no different). In end, it comes down to a risk vs. reward assessment. More risk aversive players would likely pick Krebons, whereas high risk players might pick Diva.

This is my point. People usually don't stack plague unless desperate or going for the win. In these instances stacking Diva is an exceptional move.

Don't forget Zombie Master or Caius. The bare minimum number of darks that are needed in order to run Allure effectively is about 9 and the deck already exceeds this by a considerable amount without Krebons.

That's the thing though, most games this format aren't drawn out that long. Also Diva can be absolutely devastating late game depending on the situation. It is also a great comeback card; the other day at my local tournament my opponent and I were both down to under 4000 lp, in hand all I had was a book of life with a mezuki and goblin zombie in the grave to his Stardust, Goyo and Shura with no back row, I draw diva and proceed to spank him.

Diva is just one of those cards that when they're good they're amazing.

It results in the same amount of advantage the Diva provides in the long run though. Diva is a +1 on it's own without relying on your opponent to waste removal on it.

That's the thing though the same could be said for diva, but the result being better. If I search out Goblin Zombie with tomato with a diva in my hand then we all know how that will turn out.

The thing is that even though that option is available it is negligible seeing as it will rarely happen if ever.

You see though the end result is more or less the same in terms of card advantage only krebons relies on your opponent to use removal for the pluses while Diva does it on it's own.

Agreed, but there are so many darks run already that if is often negligible.
I agree 100% with you on this, but my point is that Diva has a much higher chance of being explosive due to it only requiring 1 copy of itself to do so while Krebons' explosiveness relies entirely on E-Teleport, a card which is limited.

I understand, but once you use diva it's done it's job. There is no other job that Diva needs to accomplish. As long as you have a monster on the field Diva will be very explosive the same cannot be said about krebons.

Drawing two copies of Krebons isn't exactly ideal either though. The best way to play Diva is to use it before you draw into another copy, if you do draw into another copy then there's always Plague to alleviate this. The majority of times you will not have more than one diva in you hand regardless.

In the months that I've been using this card in Zombies this has not happened to me once. Every time I did draw both Divas I was able to stack the card with plague and swarm my opponent immediately. The key to the card is setting up your plays strategically. You won't spin Diva for plague unless you have some kind of follow up, that would be dumb.
Krebons is only respectable by itself because of two reasons, it's dark, and it can potentially stall, that's all. In a sense all tuners are reliant on other cards (except maybe Gale) it's just that what Diva does, it does extremely well. I am actually more risk aversive than anything, In fact the biggest risk I've taken in a while has been using Diva in Zombies and let me tell you it pays off tremendously. Krebons while respectable on it's own, still does very little on it's own worth any merit. IMHO the real star of the "Krebons Show" is E-Teleport.

Yep, and that (along with Mental Master and other lower Level Psychics) is why Emergency Teleport got restricted and not Clevonce itself (I still laugh at those small handful of people who STILL think Clevonce should be restricted in some way). It's another one of those situations where a card LOOKS broken in some way, but it's only because of that other card(s) that it does.

In addition to blowing up, Booking or spinning Krebons there is always the added danger of Mind/Brain Control. Leaving a tuner face-up in general isn't a great idea. Krebons effect is only able to be played through stalling so trying to use it also gives the opponent something else to work with.

Krebons best abilities are that it is Allurable, DaD fodder, is summonable through Tomato and Teleport. Zombies can find other Allure, DaD and Tomato targets in Zombie Master, Goblin Zombie, Grepher, etc. While Krebons adds in synergy with its dark attribute, it doesn't give the explosiveness that Zombies sometimes need to win that Diva gives.

Agreed. If Krebons didn't have E-Tele I would run Diva without question. The other reason that I like E-Tele is because it can give me something besides a level 2 tuner. Although alot of builds only run 2 Krebons, you still get the utility of a level 1 or 3 tuner in Mind Master and Commander depending on which one your running (probably not a good idea to run both).

I think one of the main selling points of Diva to me is that it saves room in the spell/trap portion of the deck so that I can replace E-Teleport with something else that could be more useful like My Body as a Shield or another Vortex etc.

Diva also makes Zombies a little less reliant on Pleaguespreader which is a plus in my books. Not having to stack a card to get my second tuner for the second synchro summon is a good selling point of Diva. Then the play becomes "Do I want to stack a card for my 3rd Tuner for my third synchro summon?"

I guess the main question in my eyes isn't "Which is better: Krebons or Diva?" because Krebons =/= Diva. The question should be "Which is better: Emergency Teleport or Diva?" Diva can have the same explosiveness of E-Tele because its effect is basically E-Teleport for Sea Serpents. Krebons can only be explosive through E-Teleport because on its own its really only good for Allure or DaD.

Overall I think Krebons/Teleport vs. Diva are about even. Both have almost equal pros and cons. I think it really just comes down to a matter of prefence.

Emergency Teleport being restricted also counts a bit against it since it means the chances of it being used effectively every time is pretty slim so you'll probably end up drawing out Clevonce or ditching it or something like that before you get Emergency Teleport to your hand, essentially making it a dead card and to make up for that, you'd need other discard stuff like Summon Priest or something to make up for it.

I'd suggest just trying them out at different times a bit until you yourself get a feeling on which one you prefer. After all, even if it SEEMS clear that 1 thing may seem better than the other, one can be surprised when it comes to actual experimentation of the 2 and find that the results are the complete opposite than what one or other people initially believed.

gotta go with krebons ofcourse it depends on what other cards your deck is using for example if your using turtles instead of tomatos.

krebons is my favorite tuner it has an amazing effect imo and has a very decent body.

i could go on but it would be repeating what is already here this discussion got me to thinking though what if one was to use instead of 2 krebons 3 of them and then use emergency power well? this is a very cheap way to get multiple tuners with fairly decent attack power onto the field and unlike teleport there not going anyway in the end phase if you cant tune with all of them

I've tended to see Tomato more because of most of the Zombies used also being DARK and also making them Allure-able. Sure it can't get some of the beatstick Zombies, but Zombies haven't been about "regular" beatsticks over the Synchro ones and whatnot.

Clevonce hasn't been seen much anymore (outside of few Psychic-based Decks) primarily because of Emergency Teleport being restricted. As said, its hardly that good by itself (on the field anyway) and it's Emergency Teleport that did the work of getting it out for a quick Synchro Summoning as its effect is pretty much useless in today's game with all the removal. Telekinetic Triage Machine would more or less work in a similar fashion as Diva would with 2 copies of itself as Clevonce would with 2 copies of it and Machine. The advantage Diva (and Emergency Teleport) has there is that it can thin the Deck out with itself (Clevonce) while Machine only looks at the Graveyard.

The fact that Clevonce doesn't get removed at the end of the turn with Machine like it would Emergency Teleport is pretty much a moot point as people didn't even use Emergency Teleport unless they were gonna Synchro Summon right there since, again, as said, leaving stuff like that on the field these days is a bad idea. It'll either just get removed from the field, thus wasting the effect, or stolen with Brain/Mind Control and used against you and, again, the effect gets wasted but adds up even more against you by putting you at a further disadvantage by letting the opponent get out a bigger monster.

Excellent Point! I can't believe I didn't think of that one considering that it happened to my friend last week. He summoned Krebons and ended only for his opponent to steal his monster with Brain Control and OTK him.

The rest I agree with 100%. There are so many more proactive plays that can be made with Diva that are hard not to consider. Krebons, while it has more uses on it's own just can't accomplish what Diva can. Diva wins games hands down.

Heck, sometimes it might not hurt just to try something else all together. I mean, a lot of my Decks don't use either one of them besides their general stuff (Psychic, WATER, Sea Serpent, etc) and maybe a couple others.

Like always, I side with ZaQ...LOL.

I think Krebons is a better card. Obviously being able to teleport is much better.

Level 6 Synchros in this format are as explosive (if not more so) than Level 8....

Being able to use your summon turn 1 and know that your opponent must have removal or next turn he could be brionac'ed... Sucks.

Diva cant do that.