You know I was thinking about this just this weekend. My big problem has always been that people sit outside range and wait because the first person to move in gets hit, gets his attack value lowered, and has no chance at firing back unless its an overly expensive mech. This is why I like high defense mechs, I hate sitting back and waiting so I'm usually the first person to move into range and therefore I feel I have a chance if they miss because of my high defense. This brings me to what I was thinking about at the tournament, if you applied damage at the end of both people's turns it could make a world of difference. I hate to sound like (the Dark Age is horrible/classic battle tech rules) people but at least that had the damage being applied after you had a chance to return fire. It almost gives a turn based game the element/advantage of real time combat. Above all else I'd love to see this rule implemented. Basically player player 1 has their turn, player 2 has their turn and then there is a damage phase, then it repeats over again. Maybe you could even have it like CBT where you rolled for initiative at the beginning of every turn not just at the beginning. I wish my friends still played this game so that we could play this way, (the more I think about it the more I like the idea) such as it is now all I can do is play at tournaments where you have to play by "official rules". I guess I'm just getting frustrated and considering going back to card games (the new marvel card game looks very promising) but I love the rich background of the battle tech/mechwarrior universe and I can't wait to find out what's going to happen next (I mean seriously when are they gonna tell us who took down the HPG!?!?). Well tell me your thoughts, I'm particularly interested in those from people that are like me, read the boards all the time but hardly post.

It definatly sounds like a good idea and I don't just say that in a CBT is great kind of way. The damage being applied at once seems like the root of a lot of problems in darkage (charge, tank drop, etc.). I think charging would seem like less of a problem if it was going to open you up to enemy counter attack before the damage is dealt. Most of the things people label as problems in Darkage are based on the fact that you simple can't attack back until the damage has already been dealt. Its like every attack is some kind of sneak attack. Though I do like the idea, I now must put on my devil's advocate cap. The problem with the idea is it would create additional record keeping (maybe not a problem in the quick rounds of a 300 point game but larger games would require marking the damage some how) and that is counter to Wizkids' apparent goal of simplicity. I'd say the quickest way of keeping track of damage is to place a number of counters (make sure they are different from action markers) equal to the amount of damage, adding to the pool of counters for any additional attacks on the same unit. Then, after one turn for each player, the damage would all resolve. This solves the problem of an unfair advantage rolling well on initiative and the whole first person to attack, dominates thing. Remember, dice create the random factor, two evenly matched mechs should be just that, evenly matched, not one mauling the other because it got to go first.

By george, I think hes got it!

See this is exactly what I'm getting at, most of the problems are because a lot of times you simply can't fire back. Yes thats true it would create quite a problem. A couple 53 pts ssw balacs can reduce a 200-300 pt mech to scrap in one turn, sure the mechs not gonna go to salvage after 6 clicks but let's face facts once a mech takes 6 clicks it might as well be salvaged because its attack value is just too low to do, well, anything. Your right though it does create quite a problem. As much as I hate to admit it I'm starting to fall in line with the MW is broken it needs to be fixed crowd. Maybe since there are more people feeling this way all the time there could be some kind of fix.

thing is, a balac can move in fire and get out

so unless u can counter fire anytime, it wont effect vtols that much

Page breaks people, page breaks.

VERY USEFUL.

I suppose the balac was a bad example, then again there really is no fixing that !@#$ ss balac anyway so we should all agree to just light the ones we own on fire! I guess this is easier for some than others, mainly those of us who don't own any...

Wolf Nova Cat: Interesting idea. I like the damage assessment stage at end of both players actions (moves/shots). Dice could be placed next to the "hit" units after the each player's actions showing the amount of damage to be assessed. Gives a great simultaneous feel to the game, yet remains simple for speedy play. May give the second player too much power to counter attack aggressively on one particular unit though. Perhaps actions should be alternated. 400pt game? You use one action, then opponent uses one, you use one, opponent uses one, etc.

Case in point: Played a 4 mech (approx 1200pt) each player game yesterday. Assault mechs dancing to get that first shot. Assault mechs shouldn't dance! Make the damage simultaneous and the game gets more daring! (No unchallenged charges, sorry Arnis!)

seconded! or thirded. or fourthed. whatever.

but it really never struck me before. its been a long time since i touched my CBT set... but i think its an absolutely great idea. just the part about recording damage then dealing it later. i'm sure there's a way around it.

or maybe not... but i don't mind getting rid of a few pieces of rough paper writing damage down...

It sounds good until you think about it for a minute.

Player 2 now has a huge advantage.

If he gets first shot, player 1 takes damage right away. If player 2 gets shot first he still gets a turn at full strength.

NickName, NO damage would be dealt until the END of player 2's turn. This idea is that all firing during both players' turns occurs at the exact same time. All shots fired against a single unit during a turn are against the same defense value. At the end of the turn, all damage is tallied and clicked as it was dealt.

This idea is a good one, but does bring two problems. One is complexity, we would have to keep track of every single unit on the board and how much damage it took in a turn to click at the end. Two is that it does not really work for preventing standoffs and even backfires in many cases; if all damage is dealt at the end of Player 2's turn, then Player 1 can just wait until Player 2 moves into range and then Player 1 still gets damage in before Player 2's units can return fire. CBT has a move phase, then an attack phase, and when you roll initiative you always hope to "lose" so you can react to your opponent's movement (step out of range, behind/around cover, get a back shot, etc). The problem is the same, it is just that CBT's more complex system is a little less dependent on initiative and that initiative can potentially change each turn. The entire order system would have to be rewritten for this to work in MWDA. This would defeat the point of Clix games: simplicity, at least when compared to games with stat sheets for each unit/character like CBT or even D&D.

Indeed flushmaster - after reading the first post, I immediatly located the loophole. You did show it, but I'll elaborate on it:

Consider 2 100pt mechs - roughly equal

1st Player moves his mech into range
2nd Player fires at 1stP 's mech, and hits
-------End of Turn, damage fase------- 1stP's Mech gets 4 clicks of damage

Now were back to square one. Same ol', same ol'.
It would result in a turtling game by player2 - Player1 would always get hit first, unless he used move-shoot tecniques (WhateverDrop, VTOL, Charge). And even so he could get hit back. Player 2 would have a great advantage - always getting to retaliate (which player1 would not be able to do).

Playtest your rules suggestions - it works wonders.

Re Wolfie....

That used to be true 'Before' they invented Arty. Now with AP rounds and multiple targeting pogs shooting completely across the board on the first round no piece is completely safe.

One good Arty hit using 2 AP rounds for 2 damage each can definately spoil your well scripted battle plan.

And the fast moving VTOLs carrying capture troops do not help either.

I see exactly where you guys are coming from. As far as playtesting my idea like I said it was just something I was thinking about as 2 elite targes managed to destroy my 2 blacknights (yuri and barry) in a 1000pt lance battle this weekend because I got tired of the standoff, got nailed for 3 clicks on each of mine and was unable to get a 13 to fire back. This is the exact thing I'm tired of in this game. I appreciate your criticism, I guess it leads me to believe there is really no way to easily fix the rule system. Well guess I'll just hurry out and try to get a couple SS balacs...

Freind of mine is involved in a forum group that is working on solving these very problems. We had a "pick up" game a week or so back and he asked us to "try out " this rule they were woring on. What it boils down to is basically this, if someone takes a shot at you, you have the opportunity to retun fire without the pushing penaltys if it's a veichle, or only the heat if it's a mech. If it's a veichle, and you've moved it the last turn and someone fires on you, you can return the compliment and your veichle doesn't "freeze" from pushing. We tried it out for him( I think the idea was for solaris rules originally) and found that it worked well and made it a lot more fun. Also made the "Gang up" factor a hell of a lot more dangerious.