There has been a lot of discussion about charge lately. I do not think a universal fix is the way to go. Mechs need to be able to charge vehicles to remain worthwhile. Perhaps changing charge vs mechs is the way to go. Let mechs charge vehicles as they do now but perhaps hinder mechs when they charge other mechs.

One of the proposed changes by a large number of players is to reduce charge to single movement would be a good change if applied to mechs v mechs only. It would put more emphasis on ranged combat between mechs and allow for more manoeuvring. Arnis could still charge artillery from miles away but he would have to work harder to get a charge on a mech and might even prefer to try fro a rear arc shot.

Some other possible changes for mech vs mech (only) charging could be:

Give the target a defense bonus (+2 perhaps)

Have the attacker take more damage (say 2 damage when charging another mech) – I like this one

Have the defender take less damage (say primary damage -1 or 2 damage as with ram) – I do not mind this one either


Take away a mech’s ability to charge altogether and you take away one of his two advantages over other unit types. There still needs to be a reason to include mechs in an army. The ability to deal with vehicles is essential (especially vs tank drop). Mechs can wade into combat against vehicles with less fear than they could vs infantry (because of swarming), VTOLs (think King Kong) or other mechs. It makes for a nice balance. A smaller, faster mech would need to outmanoeuvre a larger, slower mech with a higher defense before it could charge (or may even prefer to shoot him in the back). A mech could also set up for a rear arc shot within weapons range but outside charge range. A player who outmanoeuvres his opponent’s mech and lining it up for a rear arc shot would no longer be rewared by being charged by his target.

I agree 100%. I posted a similar idea over on the charge poll earlier today... I used to be a big proponent of reducing all charging to x1 movement, but the more I thought about the metagame and what lots of people were posting, the more I realized that the biggest complaint with charge was the fact that no one wants to lose a 150+ point unit in a single attack from 24" away. However, most nerfs to charge leave mechs less vulnerable to each other but more vulnerable to a variety of other things, particularly tank drop.

Consequently, the ideal solution -- one that will make more mechs usable by making charge less of a concern but that will maintain charge as a legitimate tool at a Mech's disposal to deal with tank drops and arty, would be to change the charge rules only in relation to how they affect mechs.

This could be accomplished in a variety of ways, and you've pointed out most of the viable ones, Narc. I think reducing the damage to a 3 maximum (rather than 2 like ram) is the best of those options.

This way, charge remains a viable mech tactic, but a Mech that has taken 3 clicks has more of a chance of still being able to fight back than a mech that's taken 5 or 6. Meanwhile, you can still wreck Maxims and arty for that 5 or 6 at will.

I think Agility would still be useful, and actually more in line with it's point cost instead of a must have SE. It's still reducing charge damage by as much as 2, and it still reduces all Fist damage to 1. So this fix doesn't ruin Agility.

The way I see it, chargemonkeys remain viable vehicle destroyers, able to hit for tons of damage from longs ways away, while ranged mechs become anti-mech (and anti-chargemonkey) units. You can still charge a mech, it's just there's more of a risk and less payoff, as 3 damage ignoring armor from a long way off and around corners, while nice, carries an element of risk more in line with what it should do -- as the charged mech still stands a decent chance of being able to shoot back.

I dunno -- looks like a balanced charge mechanic to me. What do ya'll think?

WHY does everyone think that mech-to-vehicle charge is sooo great? What the heck vehicles are you facing that are so dang hard to crack?

I defy anyone to find one case where a charge against a vehicle is essential to your mech's survival.

And the idea that mechs can only charge regular movement against other mechs, while keeping the double range aganist vehicles makes no sense. Mechs aren't designed to charge vehicles..they aren't designed to charge anything. They are walking weapons platforms designed to fire on the vehicles from a distance. Basically take a tank, put it on legs, and you have a mech.

Somebody else raised this analogy earlier (sorry, but I don't know who gets credit for it): would a M1 Abrams tank driver be considered sane if his first reaction was to f'ing ram the Russian T-72?!? NO. That's not how you deal with other tanks. My god, these charge rules are driving me insane!

One little tweak isn't going to solve the problem. Its going to take a bunch of changes.

For example, a package of:
1) Run is changed to 1.5 times base movement (round up). That reduces charge range by 25%, and keeps the run and charge consistant on distances traveled.
2) All battlemechs get a +2 defense bonus against all charges. Mechs have seismic, infrared, and all kinds of other sensors...it will detect the enemy before it slams into it. Vehicles get no such bonus.
3) Charge damage is 3 clicks for all mechs. +1 for brawling.
4) The charging mech takes 2 damage, but eliminate the extra heat that was added in for "balance".
5) Agility reduces all close combat damage "by 2", instead of "to 1". Its just too powerful as it is.
6) No non-salvage vehicle with a movement greater than 0 can become a passanger of a transport.

(#5 is questionable, #1, 3, 4 and 6 are essential)

Will this package satisfy the Power-Ranger-wannabe-chargermonkeys? No. They won't be satisfied unless the games stays the way it is. Will it satisfy the hardcore, "eliminate charge", preachers? No, because charge would still be viable against vehicles and it could still hinge the entire game on one roll. Would it fit the bill for most of the players out there? I can't see why not.

I feel like I need to play another game on the side to relieve the stress from the bad rules in this one! The game only has two dang problems, but they are sooo broken...

Another point. Why have mechs capable of range combat in MWDA at all? SO far charge has become so important in this game that it is the only way for a mech to deal with anything.

I have done a lot of testing with mech v mech charge being reduced to 1 x move (keeping the run order and the subsequent heat) and still allowing mechs to charge vehicles at 2 x move. It works quite well. Mechs still have an advantage over vehicles but are more balanced against each other.

yea im tired of all of those people talking about charge being cheese well its not you take alot of heat and 1 click of damage that can be avoided with 4 POINT PEASANTS woow an extra 20 points and if you happen to get the charge off and you miss no matter the mech your pretty much screwed so there is alot of risk to a charge unless your arnis but not many people have him and even if you do have to face him i played it yesturday and the played that used it was a good player there is no LE shortage in his box and the dasher had no kills i simple ramed my artilery and got my mech into range and i was using the bannsons mad cat in an 8 range i had the thing and i blasted it to hell then i got the DFA so think about the risks of a charge before you b!tch about it being cheese cause its not


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what about dedicated cc mechs like unmods and flamer mods? crippling charge wholesale eliminates 40+ mechs from ever being useable. (not that they were used all that much before but the ^^ conmechII and some mining mech mkii's saw use).

I don't mind discouraging charge, but I don't want to see anything that reduces an un modded ice's attack range to 6 inches, I don't want to see run distance fiddled with at all.

I wouldn't mind keeping charge the same against vehicals because I think tank drop should be in the game and having more than 3 general counter tactics makes the anti tank drop brigade's demands more rediculous.

If, IF, charge gets considered for fixing, the fix should only apply to mech v mech, should not affect run, and should probably be something that reduces damage, (and perhaps armour should count, but I'm loath to introduce too many changes).

Rules that make no sense just make the game more difficult to learn and remember. Isn't the first comment by half the people here, "MAKE IT SIMPLE!!"? Well, I don't 100% agree with that statement, but in this case I do. Charge range should not be different for different targets. That is SOOOO counter intuitive.

I don't have the experience to back up the ideas I like, but I really like reducing charge to 1.5x move or 1x move. The mech CAN STILL RUN TO BASE. It will definitely change around tactics on the field. DF may feel like they are getting screwed...but, are they really?

Another thought I had was to give a -2 penalty to charge whenever charging distance is greater than walk distance. This could apply whether or not range was reduced to x1.5 move.

I also like the slight reduction of charge damage to defender as well as a slight increase to damage to attacker. That really should be more evened out compared to what it is currently.

Oh, and about agility/brawling...Agility could reduce damage to 1, but brawling on a charge could up that to 2 still. (i.e. agility reduces damage before any other SEC/modifiers take place). Brawling should NOT increase DFA attacks.

With that said...I still think tank drop needs to be looked at in unison with charge.

Let VTOL's be the only move/shoot units (read: move/shoot, not shoot/move or move/shoot/move or shoot/shoot)

That's what I like, anyways :)

If you want a good game mechanic fixed: mechs have set charge damage of 3 (add one if brawling). this wouldnt totaly make sense (but then again using primary +1 doesnt make sense either) because damage in real life would vary according to speed and mass of charging mech.

If you want it to make sense logicaly: damage would be something like printed speed devided by 3 (rounded up) this wouldnt fix all (or any) of the chargers but it would make a lot of sense... maybe u could figure out some way to work in mass as a factor too...

I don't think there needs to be a fix to charge. Charge is not all that big of a problem right now. It seems like everyone wants to make a change to the game. Play it for what it is. If you want to change the rules, come up with your own game and make up your own rules. But anyways.....here are my reasons for why charge doesn't really need to be fixed.

1) Infantry screening bases of mechs and vehicals
2) High defenses that are hard to pull a charge off on
3) Agility
4) The recent incorporation of more pieces with grapple.
This allow players to drop a Fa shih on arnis or any other
charge mech and then go to town.
5) Vtol's can't be charged, play a vtol like 90% of the players do
anyhow.

This is my personal opinion on the situation in the game. So everyone take it easy. I hope i didn't sound cynical or rude in this post, but i guess i'm tired of reading the same posts over and over again with "the fix."

-peace-

-anarchyangle-

that is the LONGEST sentance i have ever read.

Why has no one recommended nixing the AP on charge? Has it been tested and sucked or what? If armor affected charge/ram Heavies and Assaults would be more useful vs. the Arnis army. Never made much sense to me why it ignored armor anyway. Why does armor protect against a fist/kick/end of gun barrel used as a club, but not against the front end of a light tank to the ankle, or a shoulder block from a light mech?

I think most of us can appreciate your perspective. Such is the nature of opinions...Everyone has one and hardly ever are they the same. Just a few concerns with your points...

1) So, you're saying that the only way to combat charge is to waste multiple units and orders to help defend my own mech/vehicle?
2) High defense? Charge is no more difficult to succeed with than firing a weapon...isn't it?
3) Ya, agility...Toss the rest of the mech's in the trash.
4) I agree with this one! But, it's not enough to persuade me that charge isn't broken.
5) Umm...Ok, I'll play a 100% infantry/vtol army... :P

The game revolves around balance. That's what all these changes are trying to achieve right? Certain units are going to put others into check. That's why even back in dark age, a combined arms force could generally take down a heavy mech. The combined arms force is more flexible. When building your army, you are going to have to plan ahead and try to think about what you are going to face. If you tink you will be playing heavy arty, play a fast army that is going to get to their deployment zone and render their arty almost useless...ect. My only question is how is charge broken when all these other piece have their own abilities. Charge makes mechs more flexible and gives them more potential to deal damage over longer ranges. Artillery was given the ability to deal damage over a longer range, why not a mech that you are going to be paying more points for anyway?

-peace-

-anarchyangle-

The game revolves around balance. That's what all these changes are trying to achieve right? Certain units are going to put others into check. That's why even back in dark age, a combined arms force could generally take down a heavy mech. The combined arms force is more flexible. When building your army, you are going to have to plan ahead and try to think about what you are going to face. If you tink you will be playing heavy arty, play a fast army that is going to get to their deployment zone and render their arty almost useless...ect. My only question is how is charge broken when all these other piece have their own abilities. Charge makes mechs more flexible and gives them more potential to deal damage over longer ranges. Artillery was given the ability to deal damage over a longer range, why not a mech that you are going to be paying more points for anyway?

-peace-

-anarchyangle-