after seeing all the discussions on charge and how its to powerfull, iI thought of thwe folowing change

Make charge do 3 Damage like RAM, always the same no matter the Mech size.

This would help satify the Anti-Arnis group and keep player like myself Happy (Social player, favors light mechs, who need charge to have a chance). It only hurts the people who use the very big large mechs with high speed.

If you look at RAM no one really complains about that because it always the same damage, so having a Beheamoth ram is the same as a Shandra (doesn't make sence but it balances the game).

just leave brawling the same, 4 damage if the mech has it.

With this modification i see one complaint coming out f it. Salvage mech should not do 3 damage. I personnally say yess it should, OK a salvaged 40 ton mech mech might not have the weapon, but it still is 39 tons of scrap metal moving really fast. If any one took Physics, they'd agree with me.

Salvage mechs should be able to charge and do damage, I think Khan said it best

"with my last breath i spit at thee."

I have said before on the various charging threads that I think a base damage on charge is the best solution. However because of tank drop I think that a charge against a vehicle should still be primary +1 damage.

Dude, Thats freaking awsome!!! you solved the problem (Im not being sarcastic) I LOVE charge, and thats somthing that I would be willing todo to get everyone who hates charge to SHUT UP! You should get an award or somthing!

no good because it would unbalance charge. You get 1 to 3 heat and 1 damage while charging.

Doing only a max of three damage would unbalance some figures even more.

Just keep it as it is there are sufficient tactics for countering charge.

By the way with the proposed rules charge mech would become less frequent.

I LOVE THIS IDEA!!!

The base "3" damage would encourage more people to use it as a "desperation attack", when they would normally do 1-2 damage on a ranged attack. It would also be a good option for salvaged mechs that would normally do 0 damage!

It also balance the charge. Attacker takes 1 damage+up to 3 clicks of heat--Defender takes 3 damage, plus now he's got someone in base contact.

Bigger mechs would be discouraged from charging... "Why charge for 3 when I can shoot for 5?"

Smaller mechs would face some tough choices, That SC locust could charge for 3, but he's leaving himself open for a nast close-combat attack.

I offer one caveat however...

If Charge is changed, Death From Above should be altered as well!

How about...

Charge does 3 damage, 4 with brawling.
Death From Above does 4 damage, 5 with brawling.

Everything else... KEEP THE SAME! (ie. heat, 1pt damage to charger, +2 defense against DFA, etc.)

I like it, it balances it a little more and makes the HL Koshi/Spider great charge monkeys WOO HOOO, but any way maybe it should be your primedamage+1 or 3 whichevers lower

Perhaps the coffee hasn't hit yet, but I'm a bit unclear on how limiting charge damage to 3 (4 w/brawling) would unbalance mechs even more? I know as a Wolves and SH player that most of the mechs I would like to field are just charge bait at best, assuming they don't get buried under a big stack of artillery pogs... This would at least allow the illusion that a mech armed with lasers, PPC's and missiles might be able to SHOOT something before it gets overrun in HtH.

Now, any change to charge should be accompanied by removal of the magic tank teleport (drop).... Doing just one will not change the game for the better... Of course, that's just my opinion :)

Very bad idea. You need to think in other terms than just mechs. Even with some of the new rule changes, mechs are still very marginal.

3 damage won't salvage any transport that I know.

3 damage won't knock out many artillery pieces.

Most mechs get only one chance at charge. If you can't take out that nasty transport or artillery your mech is back to being a walking target.

ANY CHANGE TO CHARGE MUST NOT REDUCE MECHS OVERALL PLAYABILITY.

Now you want to neuter DFA?? I have played in probably a 100 tournament battles and I have never seen a successful DFA. Don't bother.

I have DFAed once or twice (once was the Ice field scenario Tara came flying off the Iceburg into a DFA and through the ICE)

Charge needs to be nerfed, i'm tired of fielding an Assault and having it charge 3 times by a player in one turn, its just way to viable an option

So, because you cannot salvage a transport or artillery piece in one shot, then charge would be useless? And this is a bad thing? I DO agree that any charge change MUST also be accompanied by something to deal with the magic tank teleporter, tank drop... But from a game perspective the fact that charge allows multiple actions to be taken at once at very little cost and in many cases low risk, it seems pretty unbalanced.... Sort of like the abusive First Strike armies that were removed....


DFA? I like it as is, and since it isn't nearly as abusive as the teleport from outside of artillery range, I don't see that much of a problem with it, though if charge gets downgraded, this probably will as well.... :) Being an old Wolf player, I've DFA'd (sometimes even successfully) with Kryia Wolf and Yulri Wolf... But wouldn't be too saddened to see it get cut if that's the price to cut back the uber charge....

'course, just my opinion and all...

Charge does NOT need to be nerfed. Maybe (and I emphasize that word) it needs to be balanced slightly. But, only maybe. It is very close to being at an optimal balance. Admittedly, a successful charge will often swing the game in the favor of the charger. But, a failed charge will similarly almost always swing the game in the favor the guy who was charged.

But, more importantly, to every who either thinks that charging should be rare or a "desperation move", you are just WRONG. Like any viable attack, it should be relatively common. A charge should be used about as often as a close combat or ranged attack. If we want this game to survive, removing tactics from the game should never be the goal (thus, all the people who want tank-drop removed are wrong too). Right now, a lot of people are claiming that charge is the only attack mechs use. This is also wrong. Charge is, on average, used once, maybe twice a game by any one player per mech. It just happens to be the most common FIRST attack used by players.

Maybe charge is unbalanced, and maybe it isn't. It is very close, but an arbitrary rule like set damage is definitely NOT the way to go. It makes charge unbalanced in the other direction. It becomes too weak and a practically useless mechanic in the early part of the game (for mechs over 120pts). But, for smaller mechs, it barely loses anything (or may not lose anything at all). This rule hurts more expensive mechs and helps cheaper mechs. No rule should ever do that.

Also, this rule makes the brawling SE and agility SEs less valuable (at least in the original incarnation). The agility SEs cost is based on its ability to lessen damage significantly. Due to the fact that most mechs have at least one 2" or less minimum range weapon, the main use of this SE is to defend against charges. Neutering charge also neuters this SE and makes many mechs with it overcosted.

Whatever "fix" is best for charge (if any), it will be one less drastic than this. Something very small is needed to affect the balance. This is not small.

-SYB

Charge is not Ram. Shouldn't be. There are Mechs set up as close combat experts. If a Mech was designed to do a lot of close up damage, then it should do a lot of close up damage.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the best balence would be to let Heavy and Hardened armor work against rams, charges, and DFA. This would protect the high end mechs and the armored vehicles that you are paying so many points for.

Capping damage at three would be eliminating Charge from play. Charge is more than a last-ditch option. It's an aggressive gamble that can payoff with a crippled opponent, or a shut down mech. I've done a lot of charges, and it's been pretty even.

"So, because you cannot salvage a transport or artillery piece in one shot, then charge would be useless?"

No, as you mentioned yourself it's a pointless change because it makes tank-drops better vs the charging mechs which makes it better than mechs in general which means everyone who can play tank drop can do it without fear of being charged and you don't see mechs at all.

Any charge change must leave the interaction with vehicles alone or it will have the exact opposite effect than is intended--fewer mechs will be played rather than more.

Agreed SYB. Ive said it before and Ill say it again, charge balances out with everything if you consider tank drop, choppers, arty, etc. The only reason this has becime a major issue is that wizkids just had to make 2 charge mechs that have a slightly songer speed than other fast mechs. You gotta problem with being charged? Use a mech with agility, snipe chargers with Aircraft. Ive killed may a charger this way, it always works. Instead of demanding changes come up with strategies to counter charge. All you have to do is think and thats what this game is about. STRATEGY!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, on all accounts.

Normally, after a charge your mech is running very hot. The next turn is spent venting or resting. And the next turn after that you usually find your mech surrounded by hostiles. Further resistance is futile.

Personally, I like to use the threat of the charge to deny my opponent easy access thru the middle of the board. Sometimes, if the opponent is artillery heavy, I use the charge threat against the artillery. Take away this credible threat and my mech has no role.

Nobody in this game stands still long enough for a mech to just shoot them. This hurts the SW especially hard. Their mechs are hugely vulnerable to charging and usually never get a chance to try out their ranged weapons. There are probably good fixes for charge, this is not one of them.