I use it when I want to look at a mech's abilities without looking at the actual mech. It uses some simple geometry and some basic math. The theory is that if you take the max and min ranges of a ranged weapon system (on a mech in this case), the walking speed of the mech, its arc, whether or not it has brawling, and its damage value, you can determine its relative worth per point.

I call it "Damage Volume". Basically, it works out as something like the strength of force you can apply over an effective area.

Each mech has 5 values: Primary Volume, Secondary Volume, Charge Volume, DFA Volume and Marquee. Marquee is the best of the previous 4 values divided by the point cost of the unit.

Here are some of the numbers from the system, I think you might find some of them interesting:

Arnis Drummond
PV: 402 SV: 0 CV: 9048 DV: NA Marquee: 57

A. Kirasawa
PV: 452 SV: 0 CV: 6082 DV: NA Marquee: 43

Federick Bo
PV: 0 SV: 1232 CV: 6283 DV: 1885 Marquee: 40

Barry Segal
PV: 0 SV: 1847 CV: 5630 DV: NA Marquee: 24

Skariah Paragon
PV: 707 SV: 0 CV: 3217 DV: NA Marquee: 20

Katsu Moriyama
PV: 0 SV: 707 CV: 3079 DV: 924 Marquee: 20

Collin Tollek
PV: 1357 SV: 302 CV: 5630 DV: NA Marquee: 20

Clyde Joyce (Jung Chae has a Marquee of 12)
PV: 1539 SV: 0 CV: 3167 DV: NA Marquee: 13

Micheala Freeman
PV: 1385 SV: 302 CV: 2199 DV: NA Marquee: 7

Jonah Levin
PV: 402 SV: 1539 CV: 1571 DV: NA Marquee: 5

Keep in mind that these numbers do not take into account the ability to hit, the defenses of the target, or any SEs beyond Brawling and Jump Jets.

Though generally worthless, these numbers--in my mind--strongly highlight that the problem with the game is the charge. Yes, I know that you take 2 or 3 heat and 1 damage for a charge, but I don't believe that comes anywhere near balancing the attack.

When you combine the 0 minimum range of a charge, with the extreme effective range, the 360 degree "firing" arc, and the +1 to damage, you get some pretty sick numbers.


To figure out the values, use the following equations:

PV = (((Pi * (X^2)) - (Pi * (M^2))) * (A/360)) * D
X = Max range of primary attack.
M = Min range of primary attack.
A = Firing arc
D = Primary damage

SV is calculated using the same formula as PV, but use the secondary attack stats.

CV = (Pi * ((V * 2)^2)) * D
V = Movement
D = Primary damage + 1 (+ 1 if the mech has Brawling)

DV = (Pi * (V^2)) * D
V = Movement
D = Primary damage + 2 (+ 1 if the mech has Brawling)

Marquee = Whatever the max of the previous 4 was divided by point cost.

:confused: Ummm, how the HECK to you calculate PI into MW:DA??? And who came up with this, it's a bit odd to say the least...

BlackFusion, you get the area of a circle from its radius. The range is a radius. The area of a circle is Pi*(Radius squared).

Then you take the fraction of this circle from the 'Mech's firing arc.

It's to figure out how much of the board can be threatened by a 'Mech's weapons. It's a simplification, and totally ignores terrain and interposing units, but it's a sound mathematical model.

One other thing I'd chime in with, though, is that Anti-Personnel (especially 2-target) can seriously mess with such calculations.

Perhaps I should explain more...

1) Consider that you have a circle, with the radius of the circle being your max range.

2) Consider that there is another circle within the first (with the same center point), with the radius being your min range.

3) Calculate the area of the first circle, and subtract the area of the second circle.

4) Then, figure out what percentage of a circle you can fire through by dividing your firing arc by 360.

5) Multiple the results of 3 and 4, and you have the "cone" like area in which you can hit any target with which you have line of sight. I call that the Damage Area.

6) To get the damage volume, consider that the area mentioned in step #5 also has a height (make it 3 dimensional) equal to the damage value. Multiply the result of #5 by your damage value to get Damage Volume.

With charging, your max range is double your speed, your min range is 0, and add in brawling to the damage if you have it.

Better?

(Pi is used to figure the area of a circle)


Originally, I tried to work in other SEs like Anp, AP, Pulse, etc, but then I found that you also need to apply a probability to hit, which brought in defenseive SEs and armor types... Long story short: I blew a brain fuse.

Once you start getting into that complex of complication, with an indeterminate number of variables, the values become increasingly arbitrary until all value is lost. :(

(Not to mention that AnP may not be targeted against a unit in base with an infantry, how do you accomidate multiple target AnP, etc. Messy stuff)

VERY impressive, took a few readings before I understood precisely what you're doing (you should refer to things as areas, not volume, though, since we're looking at 2 dimensional objects).

I do have a few comments.

First, you use a formula that has brawling worth an extra 20 or 25 percent of the value, essentially worth more than any other stat...and come to the conclusion that mechs with brawling come out ahead under the formula.

Um...yes, I agree.

And, are you sure a mech with 360 degree firing arc is worth twice as much as one with 180 degrees? This seems a bit excessive, since it's fairly easy to use terrain/board disposition to negate the bulk of any deficiency in firing arc (heck, it's almost impossible NOT to have 180 degrees fairly well protected). Bare minimum, I would take 180 degrees as the 'maximum', and truncate anything above that (seriously, just how often does a mech need to fire at separate targets in a greater than 270 degree arc? I've never seen it happen, and I'm sure it's rare enough that a mech capable of it wouldn't be worth 50% more than a mech that couldn't do it).

Because of this little issue, you're under-comparing firing ability to charge ability...chargers are getting an automatic double to quadruple bonus over range shooters (this is why every mech has its highest rating under charge in your examples)...charge is awesome, but not THAT awesome, I believe.

In short, your formulas weight charge to the exlusion of everything else, then give a fat bonus to anything with brawling.

We already know charge and brawling are good, honest. :)

Anyway, in these sorts of systems, rather than some arbitrary formula, you're better off picking 'standard' units, and putting everything in terms of the standard...it's much more consistent in figuring out what should be a relative point cost.

You're already starting along those line since you're comparing everything to the 'standard' of Arnis, and the use of division by points in Marquis Value definitely is the way to go with you're going to use some formula.

I don't think Arnis is a good standard, its usually it's best to pick a mediocre subject as the standard...what's a good candidate for mediocre mech?

Nice stuff, though,

Rick

I like the calculation in determining the damage ratings of particular mechs.

One suggestion though, why not assume a base defense of 20, and use the probability of the particular mech to hit the base 20 as some sort of multiplication factor in your calculations?

Wow..now I can say somepeople DO have waaaay too much time on thier hands. Good work though bud.

I don't work well with any old Pi. I work much better with Apple Pi, or Pumpkin Pi. Maybe some Lemon Pi. But not just plain old Pi.


mmmmm...Pi

@Doomboy: You raise some very good points. If I were doing a true value calculation, I would have to start taking those things into consideration. However, what I'm doing here is simply a numeric exercise showing the ability to apply a certain degree of force over an area. If I were to take into account usability of arc, I probably would cap it at 180 degrees (and I have used a multi target ranged attack where it was 180 degrees between the two targets).

As for the arc's effect on charging: it is that strong. If you had to have LOS for a charge attack, you would see far less charging. Again, this calc is simply to illustrate the ability to apply a force over an area, not whether or not it is wise or efficient to do so. The same goes for Brawling. If you look at 1 click of damage as 1/17 of the maximum *possible* life of a mech, it does make that big a difference.

If I ever do get around to evaluating all the units, I would pick an arbitrary standard to compare to...probably a Spirit Cat, as they are very mediocre number wise (just deep dials). This also only takes into account the first click, which penalizes some Mercs and all Steel Wolves.


@Khanslayer: I've tried doing that, as a way of adding a fourth dimension to the image (I see the damage volume as a three dimensional region of space)...kind of a density value to that volume. The problem there is one that I mentioned earlier: how do you evaluate the effects of the various SEs? Is Pulse worth doubling the damage? What effect does AP have? IT's effect is obvious (better accuracy), but what about Decoy?

Actually, I'm working on a defensive formula to rate the survivability of various mechs. Guess what. So far, Im coming up with Agility as being the most powerful defensive SE.

@Cauldron_Born: I was in a meeting today trying to ignore my boss talking about sending our jobs off-shore, so I had plenty of time on my hands. :noid:

I tend to prefer Blueberry, or Chocolate Cream pie. But that's just me...

hey- while you're at it- can you crack the wizkids formula for building mech Point Values? (I hear you may need some serious drugs to do that though...)

hehe

Nice work with the, ummm, damage volume, whatever you call it. It is an interesting theory, but some Special equipment will mess it up- IE Anti-Personnel, maybe even pulse...

Cool nonetheless!