First charge, then tank drop and now artillery.

These three are like a nasty love triangle. All trying to F--- each other. (sorry if that offends)

I agree with what some people say here. One influences the other and so on.

Now...artillery has been 'nerfed' a bit but some think it's not enough.

Was it?

What about the "no SE's on artillery attacks because they aren't ranged attacks" arguement? valid?

How about the duel roll? One for the pog and one for the affected units...must beat thier DV to have them take damage?

Take the above idea and tweak it.

Roll once for the pog. Handle drift if required. Then gather up all the units affected. Roll again, if that roll allows the artillery unit to beat the affected units DV then SE's work.

Meaning? If you defeat the DV of the affected units Amor Piercing applies, if not they are still hit but no AP (or any other SE that may apply).

Ideas?

An interesting sort of theory, although it does escape the basic premise of all attacks resolved with one die roll. (We already have exceptions to this with Decoy and IT, but still...)

The main benefit would be to the high-cost hardened-armor units, which could definitely use a bit of a boost. Right now they're vulnerable to the arty/tank-drop combo, reducing that a bit would make things more interesting.

We're already kinda discussing arty in general (and the SS Tank ArrowIV in specific) in another thread. Rather than repeating ourselves in multiple threads, I suggest we just discuss things there. The thread is at...

http://www.mwrealms.com/forum/showth...399#post392399

hmm I dont think the problem lies in the general concept of artillery. Nor lies it in the general concept of VTOLS.

Its obvious.

It lies in those chase figures, SS Balac, SS towed AA, DF Donar, SH Towed, SS Arrow IV, SH Aesir.

Wizkids is willingly making broken units to sell boosters, thats the problem.

WarFlail...yes I realize that an unofficial discussion has broken out in that thread, effectively hijacking it. So I thought a more centralized discussion would help, hence I created this thread to help those looking to add to a discussion on artillery.

It would just be easier, to get more people involved that is.

I would be in favour of not having SEs apply to artillery attacks - the wording in the rulebook seems to support this approach in any case.

The only problem is that we're still just shifting power. The Liao Arrow IV with 3 damage would become the only viable one for competition play, etc. We'd be increasing the amount of playable non-arty units at the cost of playable arty units. Now that would be fine by me, since anything that makes artymonkeys cry is good in my book, but the fact is that I profoundly dislike making certain figures or parts of the game obsolete.

And let's face it, in the Battletech universe artillery is quite powerful. So it should be here too. But if every artillery piece had been somehow restricted by point cost, it would have been better - make the artillery incredibly strong, but also similarly expensive. We're talking something like 4-5 damage with one or two targets, but cost 150-200 points (for a 450-point environment). Of course, now this can't happen without a MAJOR game overhaul, but I think it would have been more interesting.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm not sure how this can be fixed without killing arty altogether.

doesn't this come down to the same old agreement of what toys you have? those that have SE armor units hate AP arty
If you have hardened, heavy or reactive armor of course you don't want them to be hurt, but sorry guys, thems the breaks. Build a better rat and someone else builds a better rat trap.
Learn about AP, embrace AP LOVE AP

The real issue on artillery is it's massively undercosted. My 45 (or so) point Padilla can easily deal 9 points of damage to 3 three different formations, only needing to roll a 9 (or so)...and high defense is completely irrelevant. Throw in also that artillery is also able to shoot directly into close combat between other units (unlike any other unit), forcing the other player to either risk making a breakaway roll, or take almost certain damage.

Now add armor piercing, and dealing 2 damage in a shot, on 'good' (i.e., ridiculously good) artillery pieces.

Why on earth are these things so cheap? Triple the damage, double the range, vastly improved accuracy, AND a powerful special ability (shooting into combat)...for the same cost as a medium tank.

Bare minimum, they should double the cost of all artillery, and probably triple it.

That's the real fix, make these things cost what they should.

Alternatively, have each pog only deal its damage, total to a single unit in range (i.e., a 1 damage artillery can only do 1 damage with a pog, instead of slamming all pieces in pog range for a point)...this would bring it in line with a typical tank.

Or, do like we do at the shop: just have gentleman's agreements not to use the things...you'll be amazed how getting rid of artillery adds to the game.

Take care,

Rick

This is not about ap, this is about artilery attacks in general. Which are way too powerfull for their point cost. The worth problem with them is that they completly ignore defence of effected units. If this was not the case it would have been balanced. My suggestion is after arty roll is made not only will it signify center of impact, but it will also be used to check against target's armor to see if it hits. As a side benefict it will make clear line of sight much more important to arty. (+4 to attack). Right now everybody just places pog under center dot. There is very little strategy and tactics involved in arty use. If clear line of sight was vital, positioning and using arty would become a very interesting and much more complicated tactic.

I will always think that AP is too much until they change it to something a bit less overpowering. I play DF, so this doesn't affect me in the least. I just see an imbalance when artillery can use AP with such low cost in points.

Doomboy, a good point! We don't use arty at my venue either, having agreed that it's way too good. We also don't use tank-drop for that reason, but that's another discussion. ;)

Also keep in mind that gamers being gamers, even just for fun armies tend to get measured against the yardstick of competitive play. I'm all for local "gentlemans agreements" but in the past 20+ years, all tabletop RPGs, cardgames, etc that have stood the test of time were careful to balance things to some degree on the upper end. Are we willing to write off anything remotely resembling fun if one guy shows up at a sanctioned event where he doesnt have to pay any heed at all to your gentlemans agreement? How about Nats and Worlds? "

Gentlemans agreement? How about I field uberness to win instead, and if you dont like it, field it yourself?" and that sort of thing.

A simple fix would be to just increase the size of the board. even a couplf of inches would require the newer "uber" arty to require a transport to move into position that would be able to effect the opponents DZ. It wouldn't make the unit less effective just less order effective. If you want to employ multiples you'd need a command vehicle or a Mech with command.

Increasing size of the board wouldn't work for the following 3 reasons:
1) venues have limited space and often have tables that are just enough for current board size. They will not be able to cash out for table upgrade and even if they do they may no longer have space for all battles.

2) with longer tables it will take longer for players to engage (assuming no arty) and therefore will increase game length.

3) This is the more important one. Longer tables will increase the power of artilery. If now we have 2 layers of arty ( 30-32 inch ones and mortal squads), with longer tables we will have 3 (additional layer of longtoms). Now you will have to pass through 3 levels of arty instead of 2 to reach your enemy DZ. You will take much more damage wile doing so.

A lot of discussion on this can be found at the link that Warflail posted above but since we’re here anyway I will toss my two cents in again.
I think that is vastly overpowered, the artillery fix for pog stacking might have been enough to bring it down a little bit before we got the new SS A-IV but now we’re back to where artillery is far and away the best and most effective way of damaging anything or countering any tactic in the game. When artillery was released in FFE I felt it was balanced and added a lot to the enjoyment and playability of the game (I had played a couple of games in Dark Age where we spent an hour killing one peasant). However in the sets since then the top-level artillery units in the game do twice the damage as the old FFE pieces and are actually CHEAPER than the old ones. Because WK has screwed the pooch so thoroughly with these new A-IV units, whose damage to cost ration truly boggles the mind, sooner or later we are going to need another fix. Personally I am in favor of saying that damage SE’s no longer work with artillery attacks, in other words no AP. I think the bombardment rules from MK where you are basically making a ranged combat attack with the arty against multiple units would work as well.
Artillery: Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

The thing, Thanos, is that disallowing SEs on artillery attacks will just make the one arty with 3 damage the "piece of the day". Doesn't change much, does it?