So this is what happens when you don't pay attention to the stickies... ;)

Here's Part III of the every popular Liao Strategy Thread. We don't need the clean up to take the steam out of our little resurgance. Just for completeness sake, here's a link to the old thread: Liao Strategy Thread Pt. II

And to also keep things rolling, I do rather like Diamond Jack. It's got good stats for the points. But without it's pilot (what's he got against the Chancellor?), it looses a lot of it's appeal. I suppose we could always recruit him to Bannsons, but then, that's not for everyone (myself included).

I'm still waiting on the Loki and Mjolnir. And how about some decent infantry....

Alright well we made it to part III. :)


so I've been doing some thinking about Liao's paradigm, or lack there of.

Anyhow I went back and took a look at every unit pre-Domination.


Here is what I've found which appears to follow our paradigm. (this is mainly for the newcomers to Liao, Muppet I doubt this is news to you my friend ;)


________
Infantry
________

Usually live longer than others of the same type

Speed is usually slower than others of same type

Top heavy stats.


Special equipment most often found:

Jump Jets
Evade
Infiltrate
Flamers
Camo

_________
Vehicles
_________

Good balance of speed/defense/attack
Usually live longer than others of same type

Special equipment most often found:

Heavy Armor
Improved Targeting
Reactive Armor
Camo/Evade/Electronic-Camo

__________
Mechs
__________

:^^^: usually have no salvage markers
top heavy stats
above average Defense on Prime stat click.

Special equipment most often found:

Jump Jets (18 of our mechs have JJ's!)
Heavy Armor
Armor Piercing
Hardened Armor
Streak Missiles
Decoy/Evade/Camo/Electronic-Camo



Looking at this I'd say that much like House Kurita, Armor is/was a part of our design paradigm, though we usually had Heavy and for several more clicks.

We also have a large amount of defensive suites on our units and gear like Infiltrate plays it's part in our design as well.


That being said I don't think Liao has really showcased it's SE affinities since Falcon's Prey.

I think what this means is that we're in for a possible change in how our combat dials appear and in the types of units we'll receive, Attack Vtols being a primary example of this. I think this is a welcomed change in many ways and one that may help to lure more people over to our faction ;)



Here is what I'd expect to see on new units moving forward (next set most likely):

more mechs without salvage clicks, in my mind this is how I envision Liao fighting.

Going forward, less repair markers seeing how Fanaticism is no longer around and I think these were on the dial to keep us from being "uber".

Armor of any sort on our units.

Defensive equipment on our dials (Decoy/Evade/AMS)

Stealth gear (Infiltrate/Recon/Camo/Electronic-Camo)




Thats about it really, I'm excited to see what remains to be seen for Domination... maybe even a little more excited to see what we'll get in the next set. By then I'd expect WK to have ironed out how to deal with faction abilities, or lack there of.


Bsidez

I would like to have more pilots for Liao as well but I am thinking we are going to have to wait till the set following domination. I am not happy with that because we are so far behind but there is some potential in some of the units we have not had sneaks for yet. I am really hoping the VTOL's and some infantry are useable.

I kinda wonder how House Liao managed to get enough Loki's to get a non. I guess they have bought alot from the foxes. HEHEHE.

I don't have much hope for the Mjolnir it seems to be a design that would have lower DV, average AV High speed, not that there is a lack of fast mechs from the last few sets, and short lived. I do hope it has a useable heat dial. That may make it a bit more useful.

I do like our Kelswa. We needed a decent Assualt tank for quite a while now. I just wish they had given stats like that on someting else besides a Kelswa. That kinda pains me.

Anyway what should we hope from from the remains of domination and from the set afterward? Any Ideas?

Well so far it looks like we will be losing our Armor SE's as most of the pre-viewed Dom. units have no armor of any kind. I could live with that if they have decided that they will start to honor our factions habit of using stealth tactics & equipment ie Decoy, Ecm, Camo or maybe give us a Stealth Armor SE ( say at the cost of 1 heat give our mech a +2 defense bonus against ranged combat attacks) but I guess we will see how it all plays out. All so do not forget that we had more Heavy mechs than any other faction, but most of our heavies were slow & short ranged infact short range was a major player in a lot of our mech design's. Would not mid that going away. Plus most of our good infantry were Energy equipted so that doesnt look to be changing anytime soon. I still hold out hope for this faction but it is starting to waver & units like our Violater w/ its mighty 8'' range is not helping my faith in this faction right now.

I know several people who put the old Mjolnir's to good use. But then, I also knew people who didn't. I'm hoping the defense goes up on it. Otherwise, it can just about stay the same. The secondary range was in general pretty good, along with the damage. Heat dials were good, some with TSM. Attack's were decent. Just the defenses that were, <ahem>, a little low. Personally, I'd love to see a resculpt that removed the hammer for an actual secondary weapon system.

As for where we got the Loki's...? Well, maybe we traded in all our Battlemasters...

Zim has it right in that part of our old paradigm was shorter than average ranges, as well as some rather glass jaws. But, we all thought that was to help offset the cost of the FA's. So when seeing the Violator's 8" range, I got to wondering if that was just actually our paradigm. I sure hope not.

I do not like the lack of armor SE's we've been seeing, especially when other units of the same type are sporting them. Part of our history in MW has been long dials, high defense and armor. We also had the stealth component going with EC, and Decoy. But personally, I always felt that part of our stealth just went into the high defense (Catalina with her 23 in a "Stealth" mech).

From the Violator, I'm thinking that we might be heading towards the 'lots of SE' paradigm. We got loads of the AV. But if that came at the cost of range, I'll say no thanks. Just get rid of half of the something like 8 clicks of it, and give it 2" more range. Then there's the Oni. Loads of SE's, and the stats to pay for it. Sigh.

I'm holding out hope for our remaining units, but it's hard to keep up the optimism. We did get a good FP, though, and I do like the Kelswa quite a bit. I'm not looking for another Targe or ATV, but something akin to the Infiltrator MkI or the Fulcrum would be much appreciated.

Or even something like the Infiltrator. I loved those things. I definatly like out F/P. I probably won't use it much but I do like it.

I have noticed that we waver on our stat stability. The violator had some good stat stability, the Kelswa did not. And Well the Oni is a mess I don't even try to figure out what they were thinking with that thing.

The R10 is slow and expensive but does have armor so we do sometimes get armor on our units.

I figure that our design is that we get less salvage but pay for those extra "effective" clicks with lower overall stats elsewhere. Not that I figure that to be a good trade. A unit that has a 6 attack and 1 damage is not truely "effective".

I am very worried about the speed and range combinations that I am seeing so far. We have what seems to be middle range units with slow speeds. That will be an aweful combination with the post-AOD ruleset. Less often we can get into range for the first strike means that we are most likely taking the first hit. With some of our glass jawed units that is a crippling disadvantage. At least the DF of old had units fast enough to make up for their shorter ranges. We may have a problem if that is the case.

I hear you guys...

I really think that what we see in Domination will not be what we can expect paradigm wise.


Think about it, WK threw 2 new factions into this set and while the WH's are pretty easy to design for they still need to be actively play tested.

CGB is another story, there's a ton of R&D that needs to go into making them "work".

Anyhow I think that WK's didn't have enough time to fully figure out how Liao was going to play in the Post-FA's world seeing how ANN was delayed and such. So they erred on the safe side and gave us units that weren't "broken" play wise.

I'm holding out for the next set, I think we're desearving of some good units and by then I'd expect our point-cost:stat ratio to be ironed out.

Our Oni I think is useable, though only for helping the combat techs to repair our higher DV units. I wouldn't build an army around the idea but it could work.


Here's to hoping the Loki is Broken!

Happy New Years all

Bsidez

And that's "Broken" in the good way, not like all those broken mechs in Annihilation. ;)

And if it has SU PD? Then you have spent 22 points for a one time helping of PD. Still revoltingly bad. Pretty much looks like a unit they just threw colors on the dial for and didn't really spend longer than 5 seconds to design.

Grr that POS makes me angry.

Anyway.... If this set actually comes out with some decent units like the Kelswa or coolant truck than I will be sticking around till the next set at least. If they stick it to us again I will probably drift away pretty fast. I allready don't play anymore. I just like the game and still collect a little.

I hear you Looter as I have said my conviction to the Chancaller has never been on as shaky ground as it has been this last year. It is a shame too as this was the 1st faction I truly felt a connection to. I have been with them since the LI Marquee when I was awarded Tolin Mien & have loved playing them ever since, Heck for the longest time they were the only faction I collected ( now I also play/collect Kurita & Clan Nova Cat ) But if I am forced away I will still have my House Kurita & Nova Cats to play, but I would rather collect/play 3 factions over 2.

Yeah I loved them from the first time they came out too. They had the first LE I won (Dimitri) they had the first good mech that I liked (Targe) and they could be played against artillery armies in my area pretty successfully. Which I think is how the game should always have been geared towards.

I just collect liao though. Well for play reasons. I have a large collection of every other faction and bring several in case a new guy would come and want to play with something different and fun. But that was back when i played. This last year has been a bad one for Liao players. I have not even seen a Liao unit be played in almost a year now.

And the Yasha is up. It looks like a decent sniper. 36ish points for 2AP on an 8 attack is okish in my book. It can work on plinking away at basers and smaller units, and if it's used in tandem with something meaner-looking (like a mech or Kelswa) then it probably won't draw as much fire.

Granted, it's not as great a unit as the other Yashas (the JF part of me is in absolute rapture over the Donar-lite) but it doesn't look too bad.

And humorously, someone noted that "Dang it, there's a repair marker right after it loses the AP!"

...really, when was the last time your VTOLs LIVED long enough to think about getting back to a repair unit when they started getting hit?

How about a push to bring it up and fire and use that AP then return for a heal from a repair tech. It neuters itself once it has been pushed. Seriously if I want a fast cleanup unit that is about as useable as this I will run out a TGR drop from the back of a saxon. They live longer and are more threatening for a few more points. Plus you can drop them into formation of other units. The Yasha cannot gain AV from anything really and it has a shoot me for easy VC points sign above its head with its short life and very low defense.

I had wished for something that did enough damage to really threaten infantry but we got a small nutcracker instead. I still consider it useless. There are much better ways to spend 36 points then a unit with 2 damage and 8 AV.

Well so far we have a decent Kelswa and a good coolant truck from this set. Not a good enough reason to buy a single booster for me I will just buy some singles.

I really want to like the Yasha, but I'm having real trouble doing that. It's got it's good points: namely that it's cheap, has long range and move and shoot capability. But all the stats are relatively low, and it salvages after 4 clicks. For one less point, I'd rather take the Bellona which does more damage with better attack and defense, and has two more non-salvage clicks. And it has Faction Abilities.

Maybe I'll find a use for the Yasha, but right now, I'm dubious. And while all the Yasha's are nothing to write home about, some of the Hawk Moths were pretty good, so I'm hoping we get something useful out of ours.

But one thing that this discussion has brought into my mind is repair. Being a Liao purist, I've never even considered running a repair vehicle. If there was anything on the field with repair, it was a target of mine. I guess I've been spoiled by Fanaticism. I guess it's a new strategy that I'll have to look into.

Yeah When I was looking at the old yasha's I was wondering if they could give us something like that. Especially that repair click on the third click. That way you could run out the yasha to smackdown some incoming infantry formations and puch to break one if you can, then move it back to repair. Instead its early repair click neuters it and removes the desire to deal any more than 2 damage in a pair of turns with it. It has no striking capability and nothing need even worry about its presence. Most opponents will love the possibility of having such an easy kill to help them get the win if you field it. I am going to miss our shun.

I thought of the bellona as well. Especially since it can formation move with some infantry and actually be useful. if i had trackbikes I would use them (Mine were stolen). Honestly the units from Annihilation look pretty good compared to the units from Dumbination (Whoever thought of that name first I love it).

The Hawk moths I thought were decent. I hope that they are of similar use.