I personally think that mechs should be the overpowered and undercosted pieces in the game because of the title because watch this! MECHwarrior and it would make sense. tanks and infantry are overpowered!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

infantry and tanks are not as cheep as they once were, but they are still more cost effective than mechs, for certain. I still remember fondly the days that mechs were less than a hundred points- 176 for an assault mech. power creep makes these beasts more and more expencive, and I just want to fields a lance of lights.

lets see what dominates nationals this year, twins, kelswas, or mini-gun cycles, then decide if mechs are still to week. so far, they have been every year.

...Well. Thanks for that.

Currently, the only piece that I find over powered is infantry. They are way to fast. I've seen unarmored inf run Chineese fire drills around APCs... while the vehicle was moving :tired:

Perhaps, but 5 of the 10 cheapest Assault 'Mechs right now are AoD or later. Of the 10 most expensive Assault 'Mechs only one is AoD or later (Solitude).

Of 'Mechs under 100 pts.:

Dark Age: 22 (17 Industrial, 3 Spiders, 1 Panther, 1 Koshi)
Fire for Effect: 14 (14 Industrial)
Death From Above: 12 (12 Industrial)
Liao Incursion: 15 (11 Industrial, 4 Wasps)
Counterassault: 7 (4 Industrial, 3 Mjolnir)
Falcons Prey: 2 (2 Industrial)
Age of Destruction: 0
Firepower: 3 (3 Jaguar)
Annihilation: 2 (1 Morrigan, 1 Solitaire)
Dominiation: 4 (4 Mjolnir)

So, if we take into account the disappearance of Industrial 'Mechs (by popular demand), we'll see that 'Mechs under 100 pts. have been pretty steady in appearance. 12 in 6 pre-AoD sets (2 per set on average). 9 in 4 sets AoD and later (2.25 per set on average).

Almost all the 'Mechs meeting that criteria were Industrial 'Mechs. You'll need a return of Industrial 'Mechs to get a major return to 'Mechs under 100 pts.

Last time I checked most tanks are pretty overpriced for what they offer (exception on Kelswa) and Infantry are only getting more expensive which means you bring less, and Mech are starting to seriously outweigh the competition of the others.

Was thinking about this, and DBlizzard's comment of combined arms in the other thread.

But I've been seeing more and more combined arms armies crumbling under all mech or mech intensive armies. Support isn't keeping up with the nutty speed, attack values, defense values, and all sorts of super duper special abiltiies and super duper gear. When all these factors are matriced into a real flowing game, mechs are dominant, most especially on the light to medium end. There was a time when it went overboard with the pre-nerfed Twins. It's like a conventional army trying to fight the Justice League. Every new set we keep seeing more aggressive pilot abilities and gear that adds fuel to the already raging fire.
The combined arms approach works better if you got the 'fatty' army, which is based on a core heavy or assault mech.

I think everything's pretty balanced relative to each other right now. A lot of it depends on how you play your army and how it's built. I've had great successes and great failures with different approaches, be it Combined-Arms, Mech Heavy, or Mechless Vehicle-heavy forces. I actually don't use that much infantry too much, but I do know that I can put such builds with more infantry focus to good use and what I can do to fight the same thing.

One guy I know almost always uses ATV Squads, pesky little critters. I need to make use of mine more often :D

With all the min-maxing going on these days, playing a game with a set point limit feels more and more contrived, more artificial. I wish there were more emphasis on rewarding an army's flexibility than its prowess.

Maybe it's about time for a new tournament format, based not on a point total but rather on which combination of four Mechs is best able to accomplish say, three, battlefield functions across three games against different opponents. One round your force gets to play as a Defender (something like this: be the last unit standing and win VC1), another as a scouting Probe (tag/damage as many opposing units as possible and win VC2, and another as the Attacker (win both VC1 and rack up a minimum # of VC3 points). Whoever brings the army of the fewest points gets first choice of opponent each round (must play a new opponent each round). Or maybe use some kind of batchall to decide this. I hope for something that's more of a departure from the current 600pt game with Mission Cards.

And if I were king...

I believe 'Mechs are getting way more useful, and cheaper. With the addition of gears and pilots, 'Mechs have climbed way up the food chain.

@Islander...

As contrived as equal-point games might feel, a format like that would be infinitely easier to break. At least with a set point value, it's not as though a lance of Assault 'Mechs will rule the day every single round. In this game, you can spend your resources however you want, but the person who gives the most consideration to the role every unit will play will be met with much more success than the person who simply throws together a mish-mash of figs and hopes for the best. For that reason alone, equal-point games are still the best and most balanced.

Mechs have improved a lot, while WK has reined in the support. Artillery has no future on the game, eventually removed from the game as the last sets to have them gets retired. Tanks have not improved compared to their Pre-AOD days, they in fact have been nerfed. Just compare the Kelswas in the Falcon set and the Domination set. Granted we are starting to see some beef put back in tanks such as some of the Vanguard Hueys and Tokugawas, but that's only a solitary spot in a declining trend for support. The ATV and Sylph resurrection in Annihilation and Domination has yet to match the quality of ATVs in Liao Incursion or the Sylphs in Falcon's Prey.

Essential to a combined arms army is cheap command units, all of which have been retired from the game without any replacement.

Almost as vital are cheap Cap 3 transports since they are essential for 3 unit infantry formation drops and the tank drop that is central in tank use strategies in the game. The cost of the transports have risen roughly 15 to 20% with the Bishops compared to the old Garrets, Zahns and Maxims. The Bishops in Annihilation seem to be an anomaly given that the R10s in Domination padded another rough 10 points, averaging 50 points compared to the Maxims and Zahns at just over 30. Sure that the R10s have more fighting capability, but they're not essential to the role of a transport, and for the most part, even slower than the Maxims, which reduces the range of the tank drop.

Then you come to the topic of VTOLs. Today's Yashas and Hawk Moths are simply not in the category of yesteryear's Donars and Balacs. Though the entire VTOL category has been put into jeopardy with the introduction of the Assault Order for mechs, VTOLs have become more frail and easier to hit.

Infantry has remained solid throughout the sets and there is actually an increase in DV values. Of all the support categories they have been the most intact from nerfing. But they have not evolved from the pre-AoD to match the ever escalating capabilities of mechs, and the best ever infantry units the game has ever had been retired and soon to be retired when the Falcon's Prey set gets retired.

The average attack value of tanks are still around the 8 to 10 range for the most part. In Vanguard, one tank finally broke through the 10 barrier with the CJF Hui; the only other tank with 11 is the legendary DF Schmitt from the Dark Age era. We also got some Vanguard Tokus with Homing Beacon, to give them an effective 11 attack value, and in the case of the CJF version, 12. But these are more of exceptions to the 8 to 10 AV mean. VTOLs are still in the 8 to 9 range.

In contrast, even non uniques among mechs can easily get 11 to 12 AV, and improved targeting is always an option. Some mechs with special abilities can reach 13, or even 14. At the same time, defense values have risen, such that it is easy to configure even a light mech with 24 defense, and you can put decoy on top of that. There are situations where you can be forced to roll against a 25, or even a 26 defense.

Except for pulsing tanks and VTOLs, the average vehicle does damage around 3 to 5 in the more expensive units. Even 6 in rare examples. The use of gear in light mechs have pushed their maximum damage to four in many mechs, many get 5 to 6, even 8 in a few examples. There are nonunique medium mechs that with the right gear, spew from 6 to 8 damage. Heavies and assaults can spew 10 to 12 damage using damage gear. Compared to pre-AoD mechs, damage has risen more than 100%.

We are also seeing mech movement values rise. When assaults and heavies prod along at 6 pre-AoD (the Liao Yu Huangs not included), you got post AoD heavies and assaults that now move along at 10. Lights and mediums easily skitter along from 13 an higher, with Evade being a common option for the lights. Charge doubles them all.

At the same time, mech range values have risen, as far as 18". We are seeing more 16" mech too. Combine that with the Assault order mechanism and the rising movement values, and we are seeing assault order ranges easily past 20".

Then on top of all these, are a host of increasingly special abilities, which can be placed on some of the catetogories:

Multiple move --- gives free moves to the unit, sometimes a free attack on the same turn, or a free order to this unit or another unit.

Increasing attack values --- gives more AV to the unit.

Increasing defense values --- gives more DV to the unit.

Changing the standard --- these are special abilities that for example, change the assault order so that the unit can assault for full speed, even run, or remove defense modifiers. Or change the way the unit responds to heat markers.

And then you get more and more aggressive gear, e.g. RISC, Concussion Ammo, etc,.

When you start matricing all the factors, you realize that improvements are not incremental, but in multiples. We are not talking like 10 + 10 here getting 20, like we're just doubling the improvements on mechs. The matricing effect of all these factors is more like an equation of 10 x 10. We're getting 100 instead. How this affects the game flow? Today's support cannot move fast enough, defend strong enough, target accurately enough, cannot reach far enough, against today's mechs. The only value I get from support is point fillers, sacrificial pawning or bait, or to be used as rammers and basers. Other than the Sylphs, ATVs, Minibikes, Shamashes, the special units that cool and repair, I find less and less reasons to field other forms of support. Every pointage is being put on putting the best pilots and gears on the mechs, then on faction prides and SAs.

The mech intensive army of today is the one to beat. One day I just decided to scrap all the old formulas away, then design armies that is simply the fastest, most flexible, most accurate and most lethal. The points I can invest on a Kelswa-R10 tank drop, I put into a light mech instead.