After my experience this weekend it prompted me to post yet another thread. The two biggest flaws with Mk:

1.)Combat dial: the way the rules read your oppenent clicks his own figure down when he gets hit. Now this would be fine if everyone was totally honest but alot of people are not. When your oppenent clicks his figure down you are totally trusting him to click it down the right number of clicks and if he dosnt the only thing you can do is to say you would like to verify that making you look very unsportsman like.
Now you can set and watch him but the figures are so small usally they are well hidden withen the hand combined with the fact that most do not make any sound when going to the next click. All joking aside if I had a dime for every time I caught someone miss clicking their dial I would have made several hundred dollars. What Wizkids should have done is make little holes on the top of each click with a bright red marker underneath so you know for sure it was clicked to the right spot, or even little arrows on the side verifying that they are on the right click, anything but the way it is now would be a plus.

2.)Measuring: People always measure a quarter to a half inch more then they are allowed to go. If the dial says a move of 8 they go max move and then a little beyond. I have a friend that I play with and every single time he moves he goes about a quarter inch over which dosnt sound like alot but as we all know a quarter inch can mean life or death in MK, I use to question him constantly until that got old and didnt solve the problem now I just shut up and let him move however far he wants to avoid an argument (to me its just a game and will always be just that) but now his entire army outdistances my army by the third move by about a inch, even if are armies have the same movement.

MageKnight was designed around the trust factor which no game should ever be designed because people in my opionon are just untrustworthy. People are able to cheat at all games but MK just opens that wide open and if you are deceitful player you have many, many ways to cheat a little here, a little there and it is very hard to catch. The measuring problem I do not think can be solved because MK is based on that system but the combat dial can be easily fixed with simple tweaks like I have just mentioned.I doubt even the combat dial will be fixed anytime soon, heck it was known ever since rebellion that people open boosters for the uniques and then reload them with #### and look how long it took them before they actually came up with a plan to stop it.

Now I am not ranting or raving because I do love the game but it is my hope that someone from Wizkids may see this thread and actually give them something to think about because the game needs more then just your accasional rule change (oh and by the way WK good job on the latest rule changes) it needs a facelift every so often nothing drastic but just monor tweaks to make it the most fun and playable game on the market :D .

Blackcross

You think those things are bad? I think stalling is the worst of all.

It is often impossible to tell if your opponent REALLY needs more time to think or is just taking as long as they can get away with because they are a few points ahead and the clock is ticking down.

Yes, lot of trust here. MK doesn't and never will be as serious as something like Chess where no trust need be involved at all due to the many safeguards that they build in to tournaments.

Solution to stalling? Use chess clocks is about it which will never happen.

well about the dials- I have a wierd memory and I know most of the figs dials and I can usually catch anyone who does under click thier piece. I have cought many people. It is kinda satisfing to catch people thoguh I must say.

and about measuring- I usually make it clear to my opponent what the signifigance of my moves are whether it be so my guy is just out of range of fire, charge, or boundage, or anything else.

I do sympathize with you thoguh, just have to be carefull I guess.

Roo

I have noticed both situations many times myself - usually from the same players (and usually younger players). Somtimes it seems purposeful, and sometimes you just have a very sloppy opponent. Neither is pleasant that's for sure.

I think a part of the problem is there doesn't appear to be any real repurcussions for cheating in MK. It's impossible to go back to a judge and prove the cheating because unless he was watching he won't know where figures were placed prior or what click the dial was on. it becomes a he-said-she-said type situation.

But if you could prove it, then anyone caught cheating should be automatically disqualified from the tournement. No taking that extra click of damage you missed, no moving a half-inch back so you're not in B2B contact anymore. You lose. Out of the tournement.

There has to be serious repurcussions or people will just continue to do it. And they will.

N.

But when is it really cheating, and when is it a mistake? From a warlord's point of veiw, arbitrarily throwing people out of the game for a possible cheat that you didn't see yourself is out of the question.

Mis-clicking the dial can sometimes happen when a dial is very tight. The player accidently over-clicks and then turns it back to far. I have seen this happen a couple times, to players that I know are not trying to cheat.

Moving a figure to far is also easy to do without really meaning to. It usually involves the figure being pushed a little by the tape measure. My solution is to have a player measure, mark where he wants to go with a token, then move the figure.

Another problem that can be either cheating or an accident is moving a figure that shouldn't be moved. This usually happens when another figure bases the first, or when a figure is picked up to be clicked for damage/healing. In the National Qualifier that I ran last night, one formation was nudged over 3 inches over the course of 2 turns! When the mistake was pinted out, the figures were properly repositioned and play continued. This was an honest mistake, caused by LOTS of clicking and basing. However, I have seen a player try to get away with changing a figure's facing after he clicked it for damage. Since I caught him, he did not finish the tournament.

Stalling is a problem. There is almost no way for a Warlord to prevent it. The only thing that I can do is tell players that if they leave the table (i.e. run to get a drink) during a game, and their opponent finishes his turn, they have 1 minute to return, or are assumed to pass that turn. But most stalling is more insidious and sneaky.

By the way, I do not find it unsportsmanlike to be asked to check on a dial or recheck distance moved. That is part of what being a Warlord is about. And I hate having a cheater in a game 100 times more than I dislike poor sportsmanship.

Mage Knight does require you to trust your opponent, and for him to trust you. But that is basicly with any game. This requirement for trust is not a flaw in the game, but a flaw with the players that cheat. I almost feel sorry for anyone who is so obsessed with winning that he must cheat to do so.

In friendly games, you don't need to do anything unless it bothers you. In a tournament the warlord needs to put his foot down and enforce the rules. Especially the sportsmanship rules.

fixing the click problem:

both players need to hold out figures and make it clear how many clicks is being done. I always hold mine out so its visible, if the opponent wants to watch, he can clearly see. As a warlord I wouldn't allow my opponent to "cup" and conceal his figure as you described. Not unless both players agree to allow it.

Fixing the "nudge" problem: Print out little card board disks with the center dot clearly marked. Make sure they are exactly the right size of a figure base. Make your measurement and place the disk in the correct location. Plop the figure down on the disk. If you have about 20 or so disks it shouldn't be any problem to do so with a 200-300 point army. Pick up the ones that are not being used. It also helps show when figures are "bumped" when not moving. You could even coat the bottom of the disks with a sticky surface that would help keep them in place.

Hey those sticky disks are a pretty good idea...You could stick them to someone's face when they're asleep.... Anyways there is no real way to limit this. People will always cheat, and you can't go around throwing people out of tournaments, then they will just get angry at the warlord. I screw up clicking dials a lot, and sometimes its kinda hard to measure a figure just right and you'll hit it or other figures. You just have to trust people, and if thses people can not play honestly then you just have to deal, thats life ya know?

today we played a 2,000 point single faction conquest game. In my first game, my KI army (with 70 pieces just between my Elf at Arms and Elven Recruits) fought an all solonavi swarm! next up I fought an Atlantean horde that had lots of scouting and fighting automatons.

talk about figure being pushed moved around!! evry time you had to pick up a piece to click it, 6 figures got moved!! but, we are all nice, respectful players and had no problems, despite formations soon not touching, stormie's arms preventing proper basing, all kinds of stuff. In 200 and 300 point games you can control it eaisly, but in Conquest, with any swarm armies, there's no way!!

by the way, 2,000 point single faction Conquest is awesome!!

My suggestions:

Dial cheating: lighten-up on the idea that it is such a crime to see the next position on the dial and allow the opponent to click the dial back and forth to make sure that you did it right if they insist on needing to. Having to 'memorize' every dial of every figure to ensure that the clicking was done right is absurd. Same reasoning for not worring about seeing a click ahead. Sure, this is not a good policy to allow looking ahead whenever (it would slow down the game), but if an opponent wants to click the dial back 3 and forward 3 to make sure that the 3 damage was done, I see no problem with this.

Measuring: this is how we do it, 1) lay down the normal movement token at the exact position of the dot were it starts, 2) move the figure, 3) ask the opponent if they'd like to remeasure (or hold the tape out so it can plainly be seen as legal, 4) move the token-up to the moved figure, 5) add another token to the figure if it needs it. The problem here happens when a player just grabs their figure and leaves no marker behind which then makes it impossible to ever prove where it started.

Stalling: the only way to do this fairly is with a Chess clock where you spilt the total time on the two clocks. As in Chess, if there is an issue where the judge is called over, the clocks are stopped until it is resolved.

None of these suggestions are unreasonable, particularly for important tournaments and I just hate it when a player is sloppy with clicking, moving, tokening and such.

I'd not mind it all be written up by Wizkids and conformed to by everyone like they do for Chess, but it will never happen.

So there ARE solutions that can take the need for trust out, but the many people who would find this onerous (no idea why personally) will probably stop it from happening.

Thankfully, I don't think that either of those problems are rampant at venues I play at. I think the best response to the problem of clicking is to know the dials of commonly played figs. You ought to know the dials to the Amazon Draconum, Chaos Mage, Gate Lord, Zombie Baron and other powerful uniques whose abilities can change significantly and dramatically in a couple of clicks. I figure that nons are not necessarily worth the trouble, although you might want to add commonly played nons (WHK, Dwarven Rams) and significant LE's. It would probably be possible to come up with a list of 20 or so figs that, when it comes down to it, will be pretty easy to remember. No, it doesn't solve the whole problem, but it makes it significant to know what click comes where with key pieces in your oponents strategy. Frankly, that's just a good idea, cheating aside. Best way to do it? Take a crib sheet with you into the can, or tape it up beside the toilet so when you are otherwise occupied your mind can work on it!

I usually tell my oponent when I have measured a specific way so as to be outside range, charge, etc. That way they can't cheat. On the other hand someone telling you that on your turn is prolly trying to cheat you. If they are telling you why their piece is outside the range on your action, I'd say let the Warlord decide. Clarify everything. Measure tricky moves yourself. For pity's sake watch your oponent. Your concentration ought to be on the game.

Hey jgklaw,

I'm glad you are catching the 'single faction fever' that I've had since day one of playing MK!

I think it looks cooler on the table, adds a lot of challenge, and simply makes more sense =)

I hope that the craze spreads further!!

pure faction is the way to go!!! :D we've been playing that way for a long time.
also another problem? arc facing!!! ever wonder when you moved that harrasser out-of-arc from the arty? after taking a few clicks of damage it can now shoot at it!! :D

Here are some simple solutions to this problem that I like to use in regards to people who do these things.

For Problem #1
a)Ask to see the dial as the guy is clicking it. This is no real problem and nobody who is an honest player would object to it.

b)Before every match familiarize your opponents figures. I have never had a problem with anybody when I ask to see there figure and I will do the same for them.

For Problem #2
a)Declare everything that you do. If he says that this or that is in range then you can just say that at such and such time I said "yadda yadda yadda". It will cover your ### more times than you can count.

b)Check every measure that you question and if that does not work then roll a d6 decide that way.


Hope that this helps.

Dal

Cheating is cheating, in the end the player who deliberately misclicks the dial on his fig is the one cheating on himself. How much lower can one go over a game of plastic figures?

to fix the click problem ............ keep scrap paper handy to keep track of clicks on figures ( and yes i know this is only feasible in non-conquest games)

to fix the movement problem............ as stated earlier making statements as to what is in/out of range is a good idea, as far as movement i don't know what to tell you but to use markers like the multidial figs do to show where you started and where you are moving to

as far as cheating, i think they should be disqualified. i had a guy i used to play regularly at my house who cheated on a regular basis. i kept argueing to no avail. then we went to the sinister marquee together. the first thing i did was to tell the warlord of his habits. to make a long story short, i went undefeated to win and he lost every single match