Alright kiddies. I just got myself a Crox, and now i have a perfect delivery system for the Sunfire Javelin, but upon further inspection of the text and through discussion on AIM, a couple of questions have arisen:

1. Do the two tokens that the Sunfire Javelin gives to the target cause any sort of pushind damage?

After much debate, I have come to an answer for the first question. Allow me to quote some rules stuff.

So judgeing by all the quotes, I would have to say the Sunfire Javelin does not deal any pushing damage to the warrior. Judgeing by the rules, the pushing damage is dealt because the warrior was given a second action, and not a second action token. Therefore the two action tokens given to the target do not deal pushing damage because the action was given to Crox, and not the figure that takes the tokens. For comparison, I included Immobolize which puts a token on the target figure and specifically states that it causes pushing damage.

Of course this is where the discussion comes in and says:

"Well, doesn't Leadership completely boff your argument?"

And to it I reply:

"Why yes, it does."

So why whould giving two action tokens to a figure using the Sunfire Javelin not deal pushing damage, while giving a second action to a figure and using leadership to prevent the second token from being placed on the figure prevent pushing damage? I would have to say that because Crox is given the action, and not the target then the target isn't pushing. But if the Target where given a second action, he is pushing because it is his action. When a Leadership figure takes the token from the target being given the action, the action ends up being given to the Leadership figure instead of the target, but the target still performs the action anyway.

Yes, this is very confusing. Let's move on to question two.

2. Do I need to even hit with the Sunfire Javelin to give two tokens to the target?

I can visiualize the argument now:

"The Sunfire Javelin gives the target the action tokens regardless of whether or not it hits because it is stated as an entirely seperate sentence."

"But the 'Mark the target...' sentence comes after the 'If the attack succeeds...' sentence. Therefore you do need to hit the target to mark it with the tokens."

"Yet there still is a definitive period between the two sentences marking where one train of thought ends, and another begins."

So there is the argument. I leave that oen up to you guys to answer for me, because I have no idea what way to go with this one.

Who would have thought the Orcs would come up with something so fricken complicated?

you need to hit, no debate needed...

I think you don't need to hit.......



Orc Marauder

After looking at more relics it is my opinion that the attack does not have to succedd to place the tokens since it does not mention the sucess of the attack in the sentance like other relics, such as Tome of Shadows. In this matter also referance Cursed Betrayer and notice how its secondary effect, the trading of the relic does not hinge on the success of the attack, but the ability for the target to succesfully wield it (ie no other relics). Thus my Sytha(with cursed betrayer) attacks Trix(unreliced) no matter what trix will equip the CB since he can equip a relic.

-saber

The wielder's range value becomes 8. The wielder's ranged damage value becomes 1.
(Optional) Give the wielder a ranged combat action targeting a single opposing figure. After resolving the attack, remove Sunfire Javelin from the game. If the attack succeeds, deal 4 damage to the target instead of this warrior's ranged damage value, and then deal 2 damage to all figures within a 6" area of effect of the target. Mark the target so that it has two action tokens.

Well my two cents as I like to keep it simple, if you use the option whether it hits or not it is removed. You mark the target with two action tokens if the attack succeeds as well as deal the required damage. As far as taking the push damage from the two tokens I would say not. As the tokens merely prevent the figure from taking a retalitory strike the next turn. The target did not take the actions which would result in a push.

The attack has to hit for the 2 splash damage to occur. The optional ability is one whole sentence.

Basically, an attack has to succeed, lest the last 2 effects are not occurring.

Think of it this way: To get out of your driveway, start your car. If the engine turns, shift into reverse to pull out of the driveway, and then release the brake to start moving.

Not much happens if you jump from the beginning of that sentence to the end.

Unless your car is on an incline :).

The thing i'm getting at is that flavorwise, the two action tokens given to the target is not from the Javelin hitting it, but rather from the blinding flash of when it is released (it is a shard of the blazing sun after all). In which case it would make perfect sense as to why the target takes the two tokens regardless of it hitting.

I also think Saberslash's argument using the Cursed Betrayer is another excellent point towards the "You take the tokens regardless" argument, of which I'm inclined to agree with.

I think you're reaching a little here :D
By your argument we can take everything in the SAC and Item Cards and split them into seperate sentences that only rely on each other if it specificaly states that they do.
So by your logic:

If two or more warriors have the lowest point value, eliminate them. Period.
So, nobody play duplicate figures because Death just became the mother of all anti swarm domains :D

Lol, Orc Mage. - Discussion closed? :D

Yet another good point Orc Mage. I suppose we should ask Sigma then shall we? I'll post his response her.

If you take the Decapitator ruling as a precedent, you wouldn't have to hit to give the target two tokens.
From Decapitator relic text - "When making a close combat attack against any target opposing figures, eliminate those figures if the wielder rolls a critical hit. If the wielder rolls a critical miss, eliminate the wielder."
From the newest FAQ -
"Decapitator, R-011
Q: *My warrior wielding Decapitator is making a ranged combat attack, and rolls a critical miss. Is the wielder eliminated?*
A: Yes."

Since the two token sentence for Sunfire Javelin is a separate sentence, I say you mark the target regardless of the success of the attack. That sentence is not required to be contextually connected (whether it makes sense or not). Therefore it isn't connected.

As for the pushing thing, I expect that loophole to be closed any day now. That seems to be an oversight from when they changed the clearing action tokens rule.

I also noticed another hole in Orc Mages theory after thinking about it fo r a little while, the sentence referring to multiple units haveing the same cost starts with the word "if" which could be thought of a conjunctive word for teh two sentences. So the "If" sentence is only triggered in the event that there is a dispute in the sentence before it.

Anyway, now for an update from Sigmazero13:

I disagree with the take the tokens regardless idea. I disagree because A. Every action has a reaction...Meaning if you use the Sunfire Javelin on a target, and you miss, nothin happens....at all. Now if you hit all those good abilities go off and your in a goood position.
B. Decapitator does not require a close combat action to work. So if one makes a ranged and critmisses it dies. But that is not the case here. SJ requires you use the optional ability and hit to set it off.
C I don't like the sea....
D. Yeah...i'm out of points now...just remember timing is everything