This isn't really a VS question, but more of a games in general question. I was discussing this with one of my friends, and I decided to see what the realms thought about it.

The question is; what makes a better player; experience or skill?

By experience, I mean time spent playing a game. By skill, I mean natural ability to out think and outplay your opponent. To give you a better picture, let's say two players are playing a game of VS. Player A has been playing VS since MOR came out, while player B has been playing since MAV came out. However, player B is simply a better thinker and strategist than A. They are both playing the same deck and both get decent draws.

So, who's better in this situation? Player A or player B?

In the long term - Player B

In the short term - Player A

Thus, in this match I'd say player A would win because he's been around longer and knows the tricks of the trade. However, since player B is smarter than player A, he'll catch up ad probably outsmart Player A in the longrun.

Just my 2 cents

Skill far out out does experiance. Take Common Enemy for instance, On turn 4 the ideal common enemy player will do just about the same move each and everytime, signal flare then drop Dr. Doom and trun it back down. (thats player A), Player B on the other hand will be looking for different stratagies to abuse Dr.Doom's Ability, and when he does it, player A will be in shock and aww, and ask why he did that, and may not understand until a few weeks later. In other words player A is a programed player that doesnt think outside the box, player b will always be looking for a new way to win, or an escape, always thinking ahead is good, if your 2 or 3 steps ahead of your oppenent you have more skill then the experianced player.

What in the world would you flip down with Doom that would shock an opponent? A Nice Try?

Experience and skill are both important. If you have experience then you know what to expect most of the time and that alone can win games. As you gain experience you can become more skillful or you just might be born with it but either way when experienced players clash skill helps in winning the game.(luck has something to do with it too) I have both experience and skill and I still can't win. That is because I have no focus. Blast my low attention span. I have a friend that can pick up my deck and not lose once but I just can't win so a lot of things contribute to being a good player.

The "Doom flip" example's not the best for describing what he's talking about. A better example is when I'm playing Jacob Avengers against my friend's Flying Circus, and it's his initiative on 5. I have Danvers and Panther out, while he's got Shape with an Airskimmer, Tom Thumb with Dual Sidearms, Golden Archer, Lady Lark with a Jetpack, and Ape X with a Chopping Block. I've got She-Hulk in my resource row, and an AA & Wasp in my hand. What do I do? I search for the 4-drop Hawkeye. That allowed me to stop enough offensive punch when he started by swinging Shape into Hawkeye (allowing me to weaken him by picking off Mr. Thumb) that I was able to save more than the 6 END that She-Hulk was going to save me with her larger DEF and invulnerability. The extra stun allowed me to swing into Golden Archer with Panther and a CDTL to nearly clear his field while only losing the Chopping Block'd Hawkeye. I believe this trick won me the game.

Anyhow, the initial question is an interesting one. I don't think it's a fair one, however. Experience should really lead to having more skill, and thus it is the summation of a player's inherent logical capacities honed through playing many games that will define who'll do better in a tight game. Of course, it's easy enough to play for years, win rarely, and never improve oneself any, while a newer player can quickly rise from this position and win games more frequently. The difference is not some intrinsic property of skill, but is rather often linked more to a player being able to watch his plays critically, and learn to make judgement calls on how things work.

Personally, I think I am a good VS player, but I don't presume to be nearly the best out there. What seperates me from my peers in VS as in many other things in life is that I seem better able to appreciate minor events which make the difference in larger matters. Understanding an opponent can give you a read on what he may have available to him, and this allows you to make safer 'risky' plays. Being able to estimate how easily an opponent can ditch his last X cards when facing a Squadron Supreme deck, for example, can win and lose games as it hsa done for me; I've lost a game for swinging in when an opponent had two cards: Answer the Call and Panacea Potion - the ensuing loss of board advantge cost me the game. In a different game, on the same number of cards, I'd figured to see what he'd already played, and made a similar play. Had I passed the attack, I discovered, I would have likely lost, but the attack that game was safe, and I was able to trim his field to a surmountable level.

Many little things can add up through time, not just the course of a single game. Being able to make better formations, and see when ideas you have are costing you END, characters, or even games is a big skill. Also, the ability to watch one's decks and know which cards are not helping you makes a good deck into a great deck. These things are not skills most people can have perfectly coming into the game, since every team offers different impact as to what an ideal formation will be, and the quality and usefulness of a card depends greatly on the deck it's used in. The best way to learn this is playing a game where you pay attention to these things, and in teaching the game, I've found that just making people aware that these things matter can quickly cause a player to improve. Someone who doesn't pay attention to his cards can sit with a deck for months, refining and changing it, without ever making a single substantive improvement. Meanwhile, someone better aware of the process of synergizing a deck for its goals can change a half-dozen cards, and win with it with regularity.

In conclusion, experience begets skill, if the player has the skills to teach himself to improve. That skill, I believe, is the single-largest determinant of how well a player can play in the long run.

I think this game is far more simple than people put it.

I believe it comes down to the decisions you make, and that's it. How skillful or experienced you are doesn't make a huge difference, you just have to know what your choices are and which choice you pick. That's all in a nutshell.

The "harder" deck you pick to play is simply a deck that makes you have more choices and different scenarios to pick.

Look at TNB, just set TNB, play the characters you draw and use pumps at the right time to kill your opponent as fast as possible. Easy deck.

Titans, considered one of the "harder" decks in the game, you have more freedom over the choices you can make due to Argus, Optitron, and their ability to go off-curve, so you have to decide when and what characters to use, and other various things. Of course over time this has become more simplified, so Titans isn't really hard anymore.

I guess I'm just rambling now. So I'll just say, if you can see all of your choices, and choose the best one, then that's all you need to do well in Vs. (That and good shuffling...).

Oh you will be surprised I once flipped a teamup my opponent controlled face down and I won the game since I had psimon out

Skill and Experience, as you put it, are intimately linked. Either Skill or Experience can make a player good. Having both will make a player great. In that regard, I would say Skill is the more important asset to focus on. A player with Skill can gain Experience. A player without Skill can not gain Skill.

I have to disagree that Experience leads to Skill. Canamrock's assertion that Experience begets Skill is a little off. He's basically redefining Experience as it was used in the over-arching question. Skill is the inherent understanding of your available choices. Experience is an understanding of your choices accumulated through real-world situations. As a player gains Experience, he will understand better the options available to him. A player with Skill will be aware of those options the moment a situation arises.

Of course, both Skill and Experience begin with one thing--Knowledge of YOUR deck! If you don't know what you "can" do, then how can you decide what you "should" do. Look at Michael Jacob. He plays his decks. Look at Adam Prosak. He knows Teen Titans better than just about anybody in the world. Knowing your own deck is the foundation for either Skill or Experience. Once you know your deck, through Skill or Experience, you will begin to recognize what to do in various situations. But hopefully, you will synergize Skill and Experience, so that you will know both what you "can" do AND what you "should" do. That's what makes a player great.

I assume you are talking about the eight drop Doom. The scenario Bubblemailer was referring to was specifically about the 4 - drop Doom flipping something on turn 4 in Common Enemy (instead of Signal Flare) to suprise an opponent. Just to clarify.

I really think that skill comes with experience. Unless you play YGO. Or constantly play against noobs.

To be totally honest, I think just plain knowledge makes a person a better player. Of course, my definition of knowledge may be what you guys are calling skill... or maybe experience... or maybe I'm just crazy and trying to say both with one word...

By knowledge, I mean a person who knows all the little tricks, loopholes, card exploitations that aren't blatant, and so on. A person with knowledge can make their favored deck work against anything if they've done their homework and knows how the opponent plays.

So, if you're Batman (or at least emulate him), you're an excellent gamer.

Time makes the diffrence.

I dont mean to sound egotistical, but I am a pretty bright kid and understand the mechanics of the game well. I started playing magic, then quit simply because I was very bad at it and didnt understand.

But I staretd to learn and grow and read and understand. In terms of magic, I think I could do well, maybe not pro as I dont understand percentages and signals, that well yet, but I consider myself a decent player.

In terms of VS I also consider myself as a good player. Sadly, time and money has not allowed me to really play the field but I can handle nearly any deck given to me.

All of this with simple learning and time. You may have skill, but what matters is the knowlage to use it

Yeah its the 8 drop...

Experience.