Next year, we get to revisit a whole bunch of VS' earlier teams. There's no idea as of yet even what will be seen for the latter half of 2007, however, and no clue at all of 2008's offerings. Assuming the climate doesn't change so that VS loses its thrust of development, I'd like to proposition an idea for something to try in future set design...

Cross-Company 'Block' Design

This goes beyond the simple concept of refeaturing mechanics. Internal design for sets has improved greatly in the past 18 months, and there's a much better overall cohesion between teams in the sets, both in possible combinations and the factors that differentiate them. However, this doesn't yet carry over as well between sets in-company, and seems to be mostly a non-concern when comparing recent DC and Marvel sets. Given the technical distinction between the DC TCG and Marvel TCG, the VS System design makes it so most everyone that plays does so with at least an eye open to both being combined, even in those few cases of one-company-only constructed design.

So, what does this mean? And how does this tie into the title of this thread?

I've discussed it elsewhere on the boards my desire for a representation of the Wildstorm Universe characters in VS System. While the Essential Collection idea is great for excellent comics that fit into their own separate universe, the WSU is large enough that it makes more sense to be fleshed out into a full set, and since Wildstorm is now a DC imprint, it's easy enough to justify (if DC would allow it) as covering their slots in the annual set layout. In fact, as I see it, the Wildstorm Universe is best covered in two sets, as it would be impossible to cram enough teams into a single set of standard size to make it work properly. I'll endeavor to discuss my plan for their overall design.

And what about that cross-company deal, Wildstorm fanboy?

I label it the 'Year of the Alternate Universes' for a reason. While the WSU gets its reboot this year, Marvel has its own notably popular series that don't take place in their standard '616' world. As I'm sure there are others here immensely more familiar with the specifics of it than I am, I can discuss some of my ideas there as well, especially for the first of the two Marvel sets for that year. Not only does it give UDE a chance to investigate the new characters and stories the other Marvel worlds can hold, but it also allows for re-doing some other old teams in new ways.

How do you tie this all together, though?

I can picture a 5-piece system that would work perfectly for this. It would take up the entire four sets for a year as well as a unique element for an Essential Collection product involving the Amalgam Universe. The Wildstorm Universe would be featured in the two DC set spots, and the Ultimate Universe would likewise get at least one set, possibly two. Anyhow, what follows is a basic propositional layout for my ideas.

Marvel: Ultimate Power

Set Concept: With the backdrop of the 'alternate universe' theme, this set is a combination of getting to revisit several teams and starting of a series of themes that will compare across the year's other teams.

Ultimates / Avengers: Depending on how it works out, this team would either get its distinct UU name or stick with its 616 name along with some sort of identifier that they're separate from the main line team. I can imagine even having characters that are copies from the 616 team beaing dual-affiliated, and unique Ultimate characters being only assigned that affiliation. The notions of teamwork and individual power stand out for this form of the team. The best way to describe how this team works would be to think pure curve aggro. The Avengers Reservist build gives a good layout for what to consider. Large stats, large options. When compared to the Squadron Supreme in this run, their effects should tend to have a bigger overall 'good' feel, though possibly with a twist of characters that are willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good of the team. Having a few reservists and leaders in the team, as well as possibly a couple of their lower-drops having evasion (Wasp and a low-drop Hulk with a counter-'growth' power) would give this some compatibility with past teams.

Squadron Supreme: Focusing on the more recent runs, as the title of the set suggests, we're looking at the modern Straczynski version of the team. Like the Avengers, this is another big team, with several immensely strong characters. Unlike the Ultimates, however, whose conflicts are primarily internal, this team is more frustrated by its government sanction, and it therefore a notably a less moral team overall. Compared to the original incarnation's rewarding ditching cards from hand, this version of the team would probably be best served by highlighting the general willingness to kill that highlights its unusual place in the spectrum of comics. I envision a couple of 'discard effect' characters in the set along the line Harley Quinn. A high-drop Power Princess that has a Rogue-like KO'ing power on-field and a discard-for-recovery effect from hand seems like an appropriate example.

Ultimate Six / Liberators / Chitauri: These teams are different villainous organizations that have fought the Ultimates with differing amounts of success. The first, a retake on several members that will appear in the MTU set might be a bit too soon, but it'd be an interesting way to cover some legacy support for the newer take on the Syndicate. The Liberators, an international force that declares war on America, get to bring two bits of focus into the set. Their use of Ultron robots and power suits means this would be the team with the most Army focus. Similarly, they'd even outdo the Squadron as far as lethality goes. Doesn't this seem like the perfect basis for a crazy KO'ing card? If any team was going to get 'token' characters, this team, with its Swarm, Schizoid Man, and Crimson Dynamo would be perfect for doing so. Finally, the Chitauri are an alien race led by Herr Kleiser that the Ultimates have faced... I don't know much of this team, but it would be good comparison to the Skrulls for their infiltration concept, and gives a different take on the rush concept that we see in use with decks like Faces of Evil. Being able to mix and match characters from any team in the auspice of having them really be Chitauri in disguise is fun, and it'd fit with a team in the next set.

Ultimate Fantastic Four / N-Zone: Depending on the remaining room in the set, this is a pair of teams that makes perfect sense to fit in, since it is the catalyst for the crossover event. Despite being from an alternate universe, using the team label 'Negative Zone' means another thin MOR team gets a full flesh-out. Compared to the larger heroic teams, the F4 is distinctly smaller power-wise compared to both those teams and their MOR compatriots. This is a version of the team that would be more focused on teamwork and togetherness, having a feel somewhere between the original small characters of the F4 and the JLI. Whether to call them the UFF or keep with their original name depends largely on the Fantastic Four in the main universe getting a revisit before this one or not. If not, calling them the Fantastic Four lets there be a 'half-revisit' as in the Heralds set, but with support cards and more of a specific focus.

Legacy Support: This and the next set would make sense to minimize the 'other universe' cards that would normally be used to fit in legacy support. Instead, tricks like looking at the Ultimate Doom and other similar characters to give the old teams new stuff while still fitting into the theme of the set makes the most sense. Likewise, as this set's theme is a bit outside the rest of main Marvel universe, as will be the case with the Wildstorm sets, it's going to be hard to get a lot of future support in, so there's an impetus to use as much room as possible in these sets for current-relevant material to minimize the need for future expansion that directly reaches back to them.

DC: Wildstorm Rising

Set Concept: Based on the reboot of the Wildstorm Universe, the focus of this set will be on a few of the biggest, most important teams to that universe at large. Much like the Ultimate Power set, this one will have a focus on big, big characters that clash in more epic conflicts, along with foes that either keep pace power-wise or swarm to overwhelm them. Perhaps even more so, this set continues with and expands on a theme of 'the big vs. the small' where especially among characters in the Authoirty do we see some use of 'higher/lower cost' effects.

WildCATs: In many ways the original flagship team of the WSU, this would be a headline team in the set. The Kherubim part of the team (Majestic, Zealot, etc.) is extremely powerful, and the other members bring their own strengths to the table. In contrast to the Ultimates, this team is one that gets along internally, and its focus is therefore more on its ability to disrupt the plans of its opponents than on how they deal with each other, perse. Voodoo would give an overall direction to this team's being able to deal with hurting teams that have more characters than them and especially for attempts to steal their own characters. Likewise, this would be a good team for a fight-and-counter style that stops the tricks of others while tossing its own out there. Finally, a character like Maul or Grifter would be useful for introducing a mechanic fully developed in the next DC set, the cost counter. With Grifter, it'd represent its use as a focus for Gen-Active characters' powers, while as with Maul, it's a specific way to represent his power of trading growth for intellect. Imagine him being a 0-cost 0/0, for example, whose text box reads, "As an additional cost to play Maul, pay X resource points. He comes into play with X cost counters. {p} Maul gets +2/+2 for each cost counter on him. {p} Pay 2 resource points -> Put a cost counter on Maul. Use this power only once per turn." The first part of his text box would be useful for a keyword power, but perhaps that part can be saved so he can introduce cost counters without being stamped with the keyword, like how Morlocks don't have Vengeance despite having Vengeance-style powers. (Like it sounds, cost counters raise the effective printed cost of a character.)

The Authority: Just as the Ultimates and Squadron compared in the other set, the Authority is a far more pro-active team than the WildCATs even at its most aggressive. Comparing again to the newer Squadron, this team is filled with a bevy of hyper-powerful people that had once controlled the US, and deal with multiversal threats. As such, this team would seem suited to having a lot of powerful effects on its non-beater characters. With the Carrier as a half-character/half-location (like Oa) that allows for ridiculous ease of travel, disrupting formations and getting to do fun things with the hidden area or even expanding on powers like Red Shift's. With reality-warping potential, this team could introduce several very costy but very powerful plot twists that work off of the team's combined power suite.

Daemonites: In an ancient war with the Kherubim, it is dragged onto Earth. These aliens continued the old fight on Earth until more recent events caused many of the warriors to give up the old cause, the Daemonite empire having been defeated by the forces of Khera. Lord Helspont would still lead the body-snatching forces for this set, though, and their forces on Earth infiltrate the mortal forces of the planet. Flash suits, stealth suits, posession... what a fun way to get in tricks with equipment and character-stealing. I can imagine a plot twist and/or location to allow a player to pay resource points or endurance to KO (or RFG) a Daemonite character in order to steal an opponent's character or grab a non-Deamonite of a certain cost from a player's deck. With an ability to expand on powers like Grodd's and Metamorpho's, this could be a very distinct team.

Gamorra: With the Hunter-Killers and a nation for backup, like Doom's armies, this is another team that can be used for developing Army themes. I can't recall as much of this one, but there's enough to give it a full team treatment if you cheat a little with the Army characters and spread in a bit of dualies from future teams. It also gives an excuse for...

Team 7: Presaging the bigger focus on the Gen-Active teams of the next WSU set, this para-military team would be shown in its glory days. Along with having Grifter as a WildCATs tie-in, the rest of this team would be dual-affiliated with teams that wouldn't yet exist. Despite how bad-### the characters on this team are, none are near the power level of the biggest of the Authority or WildCATs, so the Gen-Active keyword would be a useful way of having otherwise smaller characters that can scale up as needed. Powers like an Entangle effect get a whole new dimension to them when you can have characters that can go from being like the MK's Cloak to being like the old 7-drop Professor X.

Legacy Support: Unlike the Ultimate Universe, which I believe hasn't yet had a direct connection with the main universe, a few characters have made the trip between the Wildstorm and main DC universes. Captian Atom even started the reboot in the WSU, making him a perfect fit for a possible legacy JLA character, possibly even JLA / WildCATs depending on how you view his actions in the Apocalypse storyline regarding Grifter and the new Void. Majestic, likewise, was in the main DCU for a while, so it makes sense to have a version of him as being available as a WildCATs / Team Superman character, and it's likewise sensible for Superman and/or Eradicator to make an appearence as well.

(The specifics for the second half of the block to be posted in the near future.)

I can't see it working as a full year.

I could see 2 sets and the EC, however...

(Ultimate Universe! Kingdom Come! Kingdom Come!)

Please UDE, no Amalgam Universe cards. Worse idea in comic book history, imho.

I'd be on board for most of your other ideas, though. Wildstorm would be great to see on cardboard.

The concept is pretty cool, and I most definetly want to see both represented in VS at one point or the other. However...

Due to UDE's committment to featuring older teams in every set now, your Wildstorm concept may not work, unless you can somehow tie a mainline DCU team into the whole shebang. I think it's actually a remote possibility we'll get a Mr.Majestic in a DC set sometime (World's Finest?), but the rest of the universe just seems more fit for ECs than a full set.

The Ultimates would work, but I'd actually wait until SHIELD has to be featured a second time to make them. So, that would have The Ultimates, Ultimate X-Men, SHIELD, and Squadron Supreme as the main teams. The Ultimate FF/FF could be a mini-team. Every other character could be featured in other teams or legacy ala Earth 2. Spidey could be an Ultimates member (he's teamed up with them enough) as well as a Spider-Friend, Dr.Doom for Doom, Annihilus for Negative Zone, Captain Mar-Vell for Kree, Herr Kleiser and the Chitauri for Skrulls, Daredevil and Elektra for Marvel Knights, Kingpin for Crimelords, any of the Ultimate Six (most likely Green Goblin) for the Syndicate, Gah-Lak-Tus for the Heralds, any of the Ultimate Brotherhood members, etc. etc.

Still, it was a fun read.

I would personally enjoy an Amalgam set. I think the characters could have interesting effects, kind of crossing over the existing characters effects. Lets take Super Soldier for example.......


6 Drop
13/12
Flight

Pay 2 endurance -> move Super Soldier.
Characters adjacent to Super Soldier get +2/+2

That seems both fair and solid.

How about Dark Claw......

5 Drop
10/9

Whenever Dark Claw becomes stunned, recover him at the start of the recovery phase this turn.
Whenever Dark Claw stuns a defender, that defender’s controller loses endurance equal to that defender’s recruit cost. (This is in addition to the normal stun endurance loss.)

Not bad and not totally overpowering. I think they could pull it off and make it a very good set!!

There's no way the concept could last a whole year. While UDE could get away with doing the Ult universe and maybe a set of alternate universe DC, sales would likely plummet too far to keep it up if they jumped into Wildstorm. Remember that popularity of the teams and charactrers involved is important in keeping the game going, and if they put out set after set of people only 10% of the gaming populace has heard of, people won't buy the sets (unless they play competitively and have to).

That is true. I, for one, would have no interest in any of those teams since I know nothing about them.

I like the imprint idea, though I think it may fit better as a collector's set like the Hellboy Collection.

I'll throw this idea out there:

Marvel: Crossovers

Teams:

Heroes of Earth (Secret Wars)
Villains of Earth (Secret Wars)
Civil War - Pro Reg
Civil War - Anti Reg
Age of Apocalypse
House of M

DC: Crossovers

Crisis (COIE)
Kingdom Come
I don't know the rest...

CC

I still need to sit down and write out the rest of the idea. Even so, I can address a few points. The WSU at large is far too large for an EC. In fact, the number needed to get through just the relatively big names in Wildstorm lends itself to having at least one set, and it's a tough call as to whether it's better to try and cram them into a single overaching set, draft problems be damned, or if it would be better to stretch them out over a year.

While for the casual comic book reader, there may well not be a lot of familiarity with the Wildstorm teams and characters, if DC spends some effort over the next 6-8 months to push their imprint, it's fully possible that there'll be enough extra press that people will be looking into the series coming out. And given what little I understand of the nature of VS sales, making a really good set will tend to overcome resistance to characters that are less well known. Besides, some of us have fond recollections of the Wildstorms card game, and would toss transplant organ sales money at the chance to get an improved take on that game. ^_^

I am actually a bit curious as to the sales of the new WSU stuff and the current Ultimate lines (and Supreme Power) as compared to the standard fare of both companies. If it's performing well, there could be a sufficient market to go that route... there's also a gigantic opportunity for both comic companies to jump on-board with this concept, and having an advertising thrust for both the imprint comic lines and VS System could be quite powerful.

No offense, but are both of these cards jokes?

I mean, the first one is like Captain America 6-drop, but with the built-in ability to move and a higher attack. That seems good, but not TOO powerful.

Dark Claw, though...you didn't even take Batman's text out. Our other 5-drops that auto-recover are a 7/7 and an 11/7. I don't know whether you gave Wolverine +2 def and Batman's ability or just gave Batman +1 atk and Wolverine's ability, but I don't think that's the best way to make cards. In fact, I think it's a good way to piss off Batman/Wolverine fans.

No, they are not jokes. Do you know what the Amalgam Universe is?? The point of Amalgam was to combine the characters and their abilities. Super Soldier is a cross between Captain America and Superman so I took the abilities of the 2 6 drops, and the stats from Superman and used that. Dark Claw is Batman and Wolverine crossed, so where they both have decent 5 drops I went with the 2 5's and combined them. It makes sense for what the characters are.

And I apologize for not changing "Batman" with "Dark Claw" that was my mistake and I will go edit it now.

I, for one, would love to see the rebirth of Amalgam or Age of Apocalypse in our beloved game... even though it may seem impossible to some.

Vs. System has become fairly influential in the comic book industry... witness the resurrection of Dead Girl and X-Statix after they appeared on cardboard.

Whether we have the power to revive something as long gone as Amalgam remains to be seen, but it would sure be fun.

Dr. Strangefate FTW.

Look I'm sorry but Amalgam, no, MAYBE as a boxed set like hellboy but any form of a set would be a waste of time. Now I like the idea of alternate universes, and even though I'm sure I'm gunna get like 40 replies saying I'm an idot, I'm realy pulling for a marvel zombies team or mechanic, but for the love of god leave the Amalgam stuff alone, there are so many better options for alternate universes.

marvel zombies would be sweet (if icky), but IMO, they have they have the same prob i see with Amalgam. Who would their "opposing" team be.

Just curious to see how that would be adressed.

while were at it, i still want my LL&L team.

ooohh and a "riddle of the beast" AU for DC would be kinda cool. Rex Luthor FTW!