The announcement from the Donais has certainly been the biggest issue to arise in the VS player community in some time. Even before this point, I'd considered options for a revision to the then-current OP policies and systems to make it more accessible and expansive. The current major shift makes developing new ideas even more important. I'd taken a break from article writing for the dual reasons of school and lack of interest in the game among my friends, but as I am looking into returning into the game, there's a weird space where UDE can either reinforce what swing is left in the pendulum of player support, or let it dwindle to a halt. Rather than post my thoughts directly here, I'd prefer seeing ideas of others to compare and merge with my own before piecing together a proposal. To the goal, I present the question we need to consider for the future viability of the VS System game.

1) Why do players love the game itself?

2) Why do players love the community around the game?

3) What keeps potential players from getting into the game?

4) What factors of the community keeps potential players back?

5) What impact does game design have on the game's viability?

6) What impact does advertising have on the game's visibility?

7) How much trust should UDE have of its players to run events ethically?

8) How can stores best be pulled into the development of a new community-building program?

9) How much of UDE's job with VS is making the game itself, and how much ought to specifically toward developing the player community around the game?

10) How can the competitive player community be rewarded in a manner that increases the opportunities to compete for a fair reward cost?

Feel free to answer any and ask your own. That's what discussion is all about, right?

1) The answer to this is twofold: license and mechanics. I got in to this game for the license, but that's not why I loved it or why I've ever loved it (beyond, you know, Doom's inevitable victory). The mechanics are what sells this game to me. I knew, on a purely theoretical level, who the Defenders were before MTU. Likewise, I've collected a couple issues of the X-Statix series back in the day ("the day" being, like, 2002). The Fearsome Five were completely unknown to me, unheard of with the possible exception of through Identity Crisis for Dr. Light. And, yet, all three of these teams are some of my favorites (still to be seen for Defenders, but seems likely) due to the mechanics involved (or just Shimmer and Dr. Light, in the case of the F5). Doom is and always will be my favorite in this game, and he's one of my favorites in the comics. And, yet, before VS came out, the only place I had seen him was Twisted Toyfare Theatre (I have an unhealthy aversion to the Fantastic Four). Could it be that I love him because he's the control deck that defines control decks as well as having a...charming personality? Very, very possible.

2) Are you kidding me? Have you even read Another Realms, like, ever? Or the posts we get from some of the more humor-minded Realmsers? This place can be a laughfest, a funfest, or really any kind of fest you want. There are, of course, the doomfests and gloomfests, but I'm not one of the people who get off on those as much.

3) Let's look back to number 1: the licenses and the mechanics. Instead of having the known characters be efficient, they're at best powerful, which, in card games, means "takes up too many resources". This means that people can't as effectively play their favorite licensed characters. Throw in the fact that this game has some complex mechanics (for a non-L5R game), especially with regards to formation (something that I think people take an unjustified amount of time to do, and that applies to people who have been playing the game for a while), and you have yourself a game that can be a bit too hard to be worth the initial investment of playing with characters you don't even know.

4) Negativity. I doubt anyone has ever seen a stubarnes flower post and said, "Wow, that guy is positive. Postively GAY! I'm gonna go play Magic instead." However, I imagine some people have seen stubarnes "everyone in the world hates me" posts and said, "Wow, that guy is egotistical and negative. I think I'm going to go talk to someone who doesn't think everyone is out to get him." (No offense, Stu, I just wanted to single you out for both examples. ;) )

To use an example that doesn't use someone's name, imagine the first post you read on this site was, "This game is going to die. Sell your cards now." The second post is someone saying, "Actually, no, it isn't. And you're stupid." The third post would then respond to that post with, "STFU Noob. Go play YGO, You-Gay-Oh." I think I'd consider turning around and going to at least a different site, and, if that meant a different game, so be it.

5) Design is all. It requires a delicate balance of quality, making cards unnoticably better than they were before. Cards can't be worse, or the new sets won't sell. However, if cards are blatantly better, they'll be too "broken" and require the new cards to be played, ruining the game in GA, etc. The cards need to be getting only slightly better, IMO. (Also, they could stay the same quality, but this sells less packs, honestly.)

6) No idea. I'd need studies in order to do this one. That seems like something UDE has to put its own research in to, not expect us to say, "Oh, yeah, I'd buy another box if they'd just have an ad in the latest issue of Ultimate Spider-man."

7) I like the notion of "trust until proven untrustworthy". Players should be allowed to run their own events, but have a very harsh turnaround. If there's a single complaint, then blackmark a player/TO. On the second complaint, contact them and tell them about it, and warn them that, if it happens again, they won't be allowed to run anything else. Third strike is an out. Have everyone that's supposed to be running events listed online so that, if the prizes aren't given out or the tournaments aren't run, people know that something is wrong, assuming they're willing to check.

8) Include SOMETHING to help brick and mortar stores sell packs. I like the notion of EAs that come in boxes sent to stores, but I don't know if that's doable based on how the cards are distributed.

9) Once again, I have no idea. It always felt like VS was very community-based, but it hasn't been the most community-based game I've ever played. Making the game is obviously very, very important, but, well, look at Jeff's announcement. It had nothing to do with the production of the game and everything to do with its support. Look at the infinite number of pages that has produced as a result.

10) 300k prizes given out at each PC? An annual 1 million dollar prize pool? Or do you mean realistically, since VS isn't selling enough to overcome licensing and the huge PC payouts?

1) Why do players love the game itself?
I love the game because I've loved everything that super heroes have stood for since i was a child.

2) Why do players love the community around the game?
I love the interactions with my friends and like minded individuals with similar passions.

3) What keeps potential players from getting into the game?
Potential players used to investigate the game an see that the same decks were winning all the time and didn't see the point in buying in to a game like that.

4) What factors of the community keeps potential players back?
The PCQs lost a lot of steam in many areas when Pro teams started controlling who would win by scooping to their friends just to get them qualified.

5) What impact does game design have on the game's viability?
The game design is a great concept in many ways, even if play testing could be improved a little more.

6) What impact does advertising have on the game's visibility?
The game is advertised in all of the right places where people that would play a CCg about super heroes could be expected to see it except for TV spots.

7) How much trust should UDE have of its players to run events ethically? UDE Should trust it's players to take over these reigns if they are unable to.


8) How can stores best be pulled into the development of a new community-building program?
Stores need ways to make these endeavors risk-free at least long enough to get them started.

9) How much of UDE's job with VS is making the game itself, and how much ought to specifically toward developing the player community around the game?
UDE did a lot to build up the community early on and some of the less scrupulous people abused that. Now we are paying the consequences on many fronts.

10) How can the competitive player community be rewarded in a manner that increases the opportunities to compete for a fair reward cost?
The reward system shouldn't be the only draw to the game. There should be desire to play other than just for prizes. If the prizes are the only draw, then there is definitely something wrong here.

OT, - I'll probably answer later - but I've only heard of this happen once. I don't think you can really attribute this as a factor keeping potential players away.

1) For my mind, Vs almost perfectly captures the flavour of the comic characters and storylines I love. In it's simplest form it is very fun. It is a strategically rich game. I like the resource and drawing systems, as those of other games (such as MTG) have frustrated me and impacted negatively on my fun-factor.

2) Especially in the beginning, the Vs playing community did not have the dick-ish component that I had come to associate with MTG. The guys loved good games and/or comic book characters, and that seemed to trump the "I am so great at this game, I win so much that I never have to buy anything, anyone who pays for cards or embraces pet decks is a noob" mentality. I have sensed a bit of that attitude creeping into the game over the last 18 months, but the Australian players I mix with in our country's events are among the coolest, friendliest, funniest and decent human beings I have ever met. My life would have been so much poorer if it weren't for the likes of Kerryn Rubin, Luke Bartter, Scott Ward, Scott Hunstad, Paul Vanderwerk, James Kong, Sam Kassis, Alexander Antonius, Anthony Maccali and many, many others (too many to name, sorry). They are good folk.

3) Dick-ish behaviour and a competitive environment where the benefits of having these great, iconic licenses are diminished. Basically this is a gripe about out-of-flavour deck building being so much more potent than mono and two-team decks, as well as the power levels of lesser known properties like Kree and Squadron Supreme (although I have a theory about why that occurs).

4) A focus on fun and camaraderie. Online forums are great, but sitting across the table from a mate and duking it out with superheroes is where it's at. Passionate people help inspire enthusiasm for the game on a local level.

5) Obviously lots, especially in terms of competitive play. I'm not well qualified to comment on this one, though, as I'm more of a flavour-focused player. I will say, though, that Dr Light wasn't that big of a problem in my local play group (he rarely found his way out of Emerald Enemies decks) and the loss of Fiddler was a savage blow to guys who just wanted to make Secret Six Victorious work once in a blue moon (even though I told them to just keep playing him regardless hahahahaha).

6) There's an undeniable link, but I believe word of mouth is far more powerful. Ads in comics (and more promo inserts) seem like a good idea, but I think the rest is up to us to build and maintain good communities and be good ambassadors.

7) Last I checked, just about anyone could get qualified for TO and judge status and run sanctioned events. Most of my local play isn't sanctioned at all ... we're too busy getting on with the games. I think it's natural for UDE to require fairly stringent control of supported events, but I think that's a different issue altogether. I might be missing the issue because the situation might be different here in Australia. Shrug.

8) Show them the money. Buy your product from them (it costs almost $150AU - about $115US - per box in Australia, so I don't think the US store prices are too bad). Take a leading role in the development and maintenance of the local community. If you can ... get employees to play the game. That worked best for me.

9) I think the onus is on UDE to market their game in a general sense. OP fulfils that role just as well (if not better) than advertising. If they invest in giving players genuine, attractive opportunities to play, then that would be the equivalent of any other manufacturer/retailer advertising. The expense to which they go to, though, needs to be in line with an overall business plan. Money out has to generate even more money in. Seems obvious.

10) I think money is only one small way to encourage competitive play. In Australia, I think people would be willing to compete for the title of State and National Champion (with a fair and reasonable amount of prize support backing it up). Give people something to strive for ... and that doesn't necessarily mean a tonne of money.

In conclusion. Vs is a hobby. Hobbies cost money. UDE don't owe us anything. If they produce a product we like and market it to us effectively, then they stand to make a profit. I don't need to get paid to play Vs ... I just need reasonable opportunities to play it.

"Vs is the prize"

For why we love the game I belive there are three reasons .
1. we all love comics ...really love comics! but if that were the only reason then we could just spend more money on comics ...and not have to wait around for some coveted team in a set that comes out once a year or two.
Plus we could get the wonderful art and kick ### storys to boot .

2.playing with friends ...face to face interaction.If this were the only reason why people love games then why is WOW mmo so isanely popular .
sitting behind a monitor playing essentially a eye candy version of hack and slash is not very social as far as human interaction.

3.For the pure mental challenge ....and im a bit biased but I belive is the real reason we play ...we love the fact we get the stimulation of chess but in superhero form.Nobody has ever thought to dumb down chess and it's still going strong .

The fact is the pros and watching the pro's do their magic is a big part of why this game became so popular in the first place.The big magic players jumped on the bandwagon for the money but so what why shouldn't they make a living at what they do ....why shouldn't we legitamize our hobby for the challenge and hard work it takes to be the best.

my suggestion is we keep the pro circuit the way it is ....because it and the large internet coverage it got from metagame ,vs. realms ect. is what built this game in the first place.

For beginners we should have some kind of jr. league like magic does or just some sort of amatuer league where they just use starter sets like when the last xmen fantastic four sets came out ....give the new players the help they need to learn the basics ,just dont penalize the veteran players who have put in already the time and money .

1. Love Potion #9

2. Love Potion #9(It's very useful).

3. The CIA mostly. It's a conspiracy to keep Vs. down.

4. Henny Penny and Chicken Little. They keep saying the sky is falling, and scaring people. I say we cut their tounges out.

5. Design has nothing to do with a game's success. Its all about advertising.

6. Advertising has nothing to do with a game's success. Its all about design.

7. If I'm involved, very litte. I am a pirate after all.

8. Hostile and forceful takeovers. Threats work well too. "Run Vs. events now, if you want to keep your fingers unbroken."

9. If we build too much of a community around the game, we'll smother it. At least, that's how it worked with that kitten and the legos....

I was building it a fortress. I was trying to do good.

10. They get to live and play Vs. some more. That should be reward enough.

I came for the fuccckfest, myself.

And I heart this thread.

1) Why do players love the game itself?

For the superheroes, the art, the sense of community both online and IRL, the sport of trading card gaming, and the chance to be famous. (Seriously, if these forums prove anything, it is the fact that there is a drive to be known in the game.)

2) Why do players love the community around the game?

Because, without a doubt, we are the most intelligent and caring trading card gamers in the world. Seriously again. I am very very sad, three days later, that we will be losing a part of our scene. The Pro Circuits are so fun and friendly and satisfying socially... it hurts really badly to see them fading away.

3) What keeps potential players from getting into the game?

Lack of broad advertising exposure. Lack of personal luxury funds. Lack of friends who play the game.

4) What factors of the community keeps potential players back?

Strange syntax on that question... but I think it's basic economics mostly. If they have the money to spend and they like the game, they will keep buying and playing even if they don't have people to play with. The community can help, but it is not a barrier if you are addicted to the game.

5) What impact does game design have on the game's viability?

Not as much as the competitive types would have you believe. I was thinking... what if they just opened the floodgates and made crazy broken stuff, after eliminating all Organized Play outside of Sneaks and Hobby League? I say it would rock like hell.

6) What impact does advertising have on the game's visibility?

People call me an apple-polisher, but I always speak my mind. This is one area where we got screwed. The Million Dollar Pro Circuit was not the best advertising that a million dollars could buy. I wouldn't change a thing, I had the time of my life living the dream, but we surely would have been better served with another way to get the word out. The Konami game might do this itself.

7) How much trust should UDE have of its players to run events ethically?

If there is money on the line, people will cheat. Hobby League should be allowed as much freedom as possible.

8) How can stores best be pulled into the development of a new community-building program?

Real, open, instant communications. When I hear that someone trying to get Hobby League cannot get the information... I want to scream. That is inexcusable. I think these forums rushed them into an announcement before they were ready, with PC Sydney taking up all their manpower at the moment, but they better get their act together as soon as they get back.

9) How much of UDE's job with VS is making the game itself, and how much ought to specifically toward developing the player community around the game?

I really think they could scale production down drastically, run Hobby League as a kit, and keep printing cards without any other OP... and make a profit.

10) How can the competitive player community be rewarded in a manner that increases the opportunities to compete for a fair reward cost?

We tried that, it didn't work very well. Now the occasional $10K and PC will have to suffice.

Im not going to go into all of them but I really like the idea of brick and mortor stores getting special EAs for them (but you would have to be a direct distributor of Upper Deck)
I think Upper Deck should hire someone who pimps out UDE and trys to get all store that sell UDE products to be a direct distribtor and try to cut down internet distribution of there product

Players love this game for some combination of 3 reasons: License, Complexity, and Popularity. The greatest attraction of this game for most people is that you get to play Wolverine...or Batman...or whomever. That makes the game popular. And a lot of hardcore gamers go wherever the player support is. So keeping this game popular needs to stay a priority.

As for complexity, Vs System seems to have hit that perfect balance of complexity. It's not so difficult to be restrictive to new players being 'able' to play a game. However, it is complex enough that it definitely rewards play skill. I'd like the game to reward skill more than it does, but I also recognize that (strangely enough) when a card game rewards skill completely, that tends to constrain the casual game aspects.

Because there IS one! And because the average Vs System player is a mature young adult.

Resource availibility! Honestly, how are you going to learn to play if there's nobody that can teach you? How are you going to invest in the game when you don't know where to buy cards? Seriously, the casual market is the starting point for any Card Game's success. And it has been sorely underdeveloped for the past year. That has led to a general malaise in the Vs System community as there has been a palpable absence of new ideas in the community.

I think the old idea that all tournaments lead to the PC was not as productive as it could have been. If I'm a new player and my only option is to travel an hour to a PCQ where my pet-deck is going to get demolished, I have no incentive to participate.

Lack of collaboration. There's really no way to fix this, though. Whenever Deck innovation will lead to money, the best decks will be hidden.

Rampant Negativity has also been a contributor here. I know it's the nature of all gamers to complain about the problem du jour, but over the past year, it's been really bad. I think we just need more positive voices. And to get there we've just got to start by having more voices.

It has a huge, but not complete, impact. You can look at some of the more poorly designed sets and evaluate their success or failure. Infinite Crisis and Avengers--the arguable two best sets--did very well because of how well they were designed.

I'm really not qualified to answer this one.

Absolute Trust! UDE is building this game for the players. If UDE can't trust the players, then this project is doomed to failure, isn't it.

I'll go one step further. UDE should implement some tournament challenges that would allow players to design cards. These chances would be seldom (maybe once per set), and R&D would certainly work with the winner. But who better to fix the problems of the game than the people who see the problems on a daily basis. And because the contests would be so infrequent, you'd probably end up with many of the best players designing the cards, so they'd probably be designed better than 70% of the existing card pool.

That's not intended as a slight against UDE. It's just that I've seen these kinds of competitions before, and the cards that result from them are usually very good AND very balanced.

Offer stores some small discount...or small amount of free product...whenever they host a tournament that draws at least 8 players. If you impose a structure that positively affects a local store's bottom line to hold tournaments, we will have more tournaments. I mean, why wouldn't a store want free product? It's really the same as free money.

This is a tough question. I think the right answer is about 30-70. But that's contingent upon UDE entrusting the player community with safeguarding the integrity of the game.

I think UDE is on the right track where this is concerned. You can't really just make a policy change without giving thought to how you intend to adjust your infrastructure to support those policies. We're not Congressmen. ;) Seriously, I think the top levels of play will take a short term hit so that the casual community can improve. When the casual community starts supporting itself, the top levels of competition can return to their old ways. It's all about growth.

This is interesting because WizKids did something similar with HeroClix called "clixbricks". I have no idea whether or not it was successful but the idea was to make people buy in FLGS by offering a redemption coupon for an exclusive mail-away figure.

Thats kinda where I got it from how they do it you need to get a reseat from the store and the proofs of purchase and mail it into Wiz Kids and they send it out to you
it could be cool for every box you buy from a brick and mortor store you get an exclusive set EA or maybe it could esclate with how many boxes you purchases

Stores would see more people buying them because you couldnt get them from the online vendors

First of all bricks are only available to brick and mortar retailers. So no one buying online can get the redemption coupon. Then I think you have to have the receipt but I don't know about the proofs.

It could work for VS and it would be great for me since I buy all my cards locally. Mail-ins for something as cheap to make as an EA would seem like an easy strategy to help gaming stores.

I have a Venom so I do know you need the proofs

I think this is my greatest idea I have had for VS

now think about it
1 box you get X entended art card
2 boxes you get an additional of X card and now Y card
3 boxes you get and additional of X and Y and now Z card
4 Boxes you get an additional of X and Y and Z and now at B card
and for each additional box you get 1 of each card
Make like
X common
Y and Z uncommon
and B a rare

Always lurking - rarely posting. Felt the need...


The license has to be first. There are many card games out there. This is the Superhero one. That's the initial draw. Once you get into it, the complexity of strategy and accuracy in character representation keep you. The prize support should be considered a bonus, but a very beneficial one.
When other people love something, it's contagious. This recent hate is not productive. I find many players in my area are good people who genuinely help you out. But then again, many players are dicks. For me the community is 50/50 good/bad (maybe that's harsh...70/30?). The online community is excellent - especially the benefit of learning from people who can dedicate more time and energy to strategy than I can. (otherwise known as "the Pros")
Intimidation. Complexity. Not playing with like minded people. I'd like to think most people who attempt VS do so for a reason other than money, although money/prizes is an incentive. A 10K got my attention, but really I was a huge comic fan looking for an excuse to play. New players being drawn in are comic fans or gaming fans. Few are in it solely for the money - there are better ways to make money than gaming. People come in with favourite characters/comics and try to build them into teams. In the past newbs got demolished and scared away because too many "pro" decks are just pieces of cardboard being thrown around for cash. That's not fun - it's more like work. But of course the flip side of this is casual players need pros in the game to develop killer strategies and push the game forward. I think there just needs to be balance, and previously it was too far weighted toward money/professional playing. There should always be a Pro circuit to reward dedicated players, just not at the expense of bankrupting the game. And also not at the expense of making the game uber-competitive to the point where a fan of the liscense can no longer enjoy it.
The game is really fun under the right circustances. You can win or lose in so many different ways it's mind-boggling and exciting. Also, the prize support has always been amazing, even if you did poorly at a tournament you left with something. The non-cash prize support is something that I really think should not be changed. Maybe even increased. Internet resources for discussion and deck building are also pretty strong (although dwindling...)
The design is fantastic and plays a big part, although I think they tend to overcomplicate things with too many new powers/abilities. Some more consistancy would make it a little easier to learn, and wouldn''t make past sets completely obsolete.
This game is nearly invisible unless you are in a gaming shop. I haven't seen an ad in comics for years, and no comic stores in my area even carry VS - only gaming shops. They need to re-establish the connection to their market - which is comic book readers. Come on! Go after the comic fans for heaven's sake!! Otherwise why pay big money for the license?
That's a tough one. But if big money is taken off the table, this shouldn't be too big an issue. Let players run non-money tournaments, and keep paid events profesionally or store run.

The release celebrations and city championships sound great. Stores should really try to coincide this with one-day sales, store raffles, artists signings, other give-aways, whatever they can think of. Also a dedicated weekly night is a great idea in the model of Magic. If not Saturdays the likely day is Wednesdays. It's New Comic Day afterall!
Ouch. That is a tough business decision that has to be made by someone more informed than a message board junky like me. How successful does UDE want VS to be? Their previous business model took them to 3rd or 4th in the biz. If this isn't enough, what do they want out of their company? Do they want to be 1st? I don't know how they do that....


This is just kinda silly. People want to be rewarded for playing a collectable card game? This is a strange place we live in where you think you deserve money to play super-hero card battles. The gravy train has left. It's gone. Get over it. UDE should give people freebies, rare prizes, and a small cash incentive. A pro circuit's a great idea but UDE must make it whatever they can afford. You can't bankrupt yourself to keep gamers happy. If the game itself is actually good, and not just a cash grab, it'll survive. Anyone who's leaving because they can't make money off it...see ya!

I think we'll be OK. UDE just has to re-connect with their potential sales-base, which is comic fans. Otherwise, UDE should just drop the license and call it Pieces of Cardboard. Then they can give away all that licensing money!