Well, again, not looking to spoil anything, but assuming I'll be able to sit down and play at Super Saturday, this is what I plan to shuffle up. Any suggestions are welcome.

CHARACTERS: (28)
4x Forge, The Maker
4x Caliban, Pestilence
4x Iceman, Jack Frost
1x Sabretooth, Reformed Killer
4x Captain America, Champion License
1x Siryn, Sonic Scream
1x Black Manta, Underwater Marauder
1x Lex Luthor, Metropolis Mogul
1x M, Monet St. Croix
1x Invisible Woman, Secret Avenger
1x Polaris, Back in the Fold
1x Jean Grey, Jean Grey-Summers
1x Thing, The Ever-Lovin' Blue-Eyed Thing
1x Cyclops, Mutant Messiah
1x The Beyonder, Inhuman
1x Death, The Second Force of the Universe

PLOT TWISTS: (32)
4x Straight to the Grave
4x Messiah Complex
4x Government Sponsored, Team-Up
4x Dirty Tricks
4x Pathetic Attempt
3x Omnipotence
3x Savage Beatdown
3x First Class
2x Mobilize
1x Superhuman-Registration Act, Team-Up

I hate to put this idea on the table without PMs, of course, but I think Captain America is the right man to lead this team. The idea is to keep bouncing people into or away from your energize guys. With enough readying defenders, you should be able to keep Messiah Complex moving while still getting off excellent activated abilities. I'm concerned about Cap's loyalty on 4, but haven't yet found the right Avengers/S.H.I.E.L.D. character for turn 3 to back-up Iceman. There's an X-Factor guy at each drop to ensure Mobilize can at least get off without a team-up.

Cards I debated putting in but can't find room: Reset, For Great Justice!, Death of a Dream, Have a Blast, The "X" Factor, Cracking the Case

Comments/suggestions are very welcome.

2 cents.


1. Things coming into play effect only works while you control another F4 character.
1.2 take him out he isn't really needed,

2. Like you said getting around CAps loyalty at 4 is hard, expecially since there are currently not any Avengers/Shild guys in your deck at drops 1-3.
2.2 Add in Penance or any of the Substitute Shild guys, play whoever you want, then substitute in someone on 4, then play Cap.

3.Black Manta also has loyalty.
3.2 with only 4 teamups Add some SS characters or cut him, I suggest cutting him and adding in Avengers/Shield guys

4. Mobilize is way to hard to pull off in this deck if you miss a team up or by chance that you not have an X-factor card in your hand.
4.2 Your running Messiah CompleX, so toss in Straight to the Grave, or play Call in a Favor they do not require a teamup.



Suggestions

-1 Thing
-1 Lex Luther
-1 Ares
-1 Siryn

+4 Penance(1 drop)

-4 Mobilize
+4 STTG/CIAF

But these are just my umble opinion.

is this for modern or silver??

Good opinions they are. Playing 2 5s, 1 6 and 1 7 is dangerous, though. Maybe a switch to Superhuman Registration Act?

STTG is probably a good call, though.

Modern. It's all legal in both.

3-drop S.H.I.E.L.D. character - Blade, Independent Contractor (at least as a one-of to help get the hidden)

OR

Falcon, Secret Avenger - he's both affiliations and gets nice and big if you catch Cap on the rally

[Random Suggestions, Hope they help!]

SRA could work, it would also alow you to recruit form the top of your deck,if your lucky.

On a second look at your deck I noticed that Caliban isn't really goin with the flow, so to speak. So maybe take him out for the Shield/Avengers guys.

And also to beef up your higher drops drop Thing, as mentioned earlier, and add Hercules not only is he semi on team but he also readies characters. I would also try to at least go 3 Monet or 2 Monet and a Wonderman. Wonderman can take down 2 characters with 1 attack.

At six you can probably stay with Ares if you absolutely sure you will have a characer to pitch, but just in case I would look at Karla Sofen. You can play her and gain 2 resource points to drop down Forge if he died in a earlier round, or Penance if you go with him.

And I guess that makes 3 cents by now.

I've thought about both those guys, but they don't play well with the general purpose of the deck.

Keep adding in cents; it definitely helps.

Taking out Thing means no anti-swarm stuff. So it seems like I have two 6-drop/7-drop combos to go with:

6-drop Invisible Woman, Secret Avenger -> 7-drop Thing, TEVBET
6-drop Human Torch, Fiery Friend -> 7-drop Magneto, Master of Magnetism

I've updated with the Invisible Woman/Thing combo, but am not sure which is better. Open to suggestions.

Taking out X-Factor Investigations means no access to First Class, which is disappointing. It seems better to just add a copy of SRA and see if it flies. I suppose I'll have to scrap Reset rather than take away characters to naturally draw.

Quick other thoughts on your suggestions: Caliban is really important tech, and slows down Exiles a bit (hopefully). Wonder Man doesn't play nice with the theme of the deck; I think 5 team-ups that cover loyalty issues should do the trick, and Manta helps with STTG.

Updated above.

I actually used some of your ideas with some of mine. Part of the issue I had with my orignal version I posted was consistancy... so I eliminated 1-4 drops that didn't have either X-factor or Xmen affiliation so Mobilize would go off. Also, to accomodate the Mesiah's, I switched my secondary 2 from Forge to Beast (who also helps a little with the consistancy; though I miss Forge making guys Unvincible(tm)). I sadly also pulled the Black Manta for the reason listed... it only took me missing 5 once with him in hand to realize he's probably not "worth it".

My current lineup:

1: 4 Shadowcat
2: 4 Calliban, 4 Beast
3: 4 Iceman, 2 Wolverine
4: 2 Siryn 2 Emma
5: 2 Lex Luthor 1 Cyclops
6: 2 Polaris 1 Deathstroke the Terminator
7: 1 Magneto 1 Jean Gray
10: 1 Beyonder

4 Government, Mobilize, Straight, Messiah, Savage Beatdown
3 Dirty Tricks, Pathetic Attempt, First Class

Runs smoohtly, haven't tested vs Exiles yet, but does very well vs other curve decks. Shadowcat was an awesome call; she enables mobilize turn 3, can serve as artilary beat, and most importantly is a hidden body for First Classing.

At first glance, the deck seems almost TOO consistant; 8 searchers, a team-up that rallies, and cards that draw on turns 2 and 4. I did some goldfishing last night with the deck (after playing with the posted numbers), and I figure out why the deck feels so inconsistent: Government Sponsored does as much harm as it does good.

Getting to rally three times for a character is an excellent way to try to hit your drop, but I found I was often rallying past Mobilize, SttG or Messiah Complex, which would just as easily get those characters. A switchover to SRA, Underground Movement or another kind of team-up may enable you to cut down on the amount of searchers. This would definitely affect the potency of First Class, however.

Were this switch to be made, it is probably worth putting in at least an off-team 4-drop, as Siryn and Emma are situational/somewhat disappointing. Something like Mr. Fantastic, Critical Thinker may be the right choice, as he doesn't have loyalty and functions like a better Emma.

I'm gonna keep tweaking...

While cycling past the blues is a down side, the upside of Government Sponsored greatly outweighs it. Simply put, thinning your deck of characters improves the likelihood of drawing the non-characters. With the tutors, you're regularly shuffling which improves your draw phase. In essence, by playing G.S. your reducing the need for Mobilize and Straight To the Grave while improving the chances of drawing a Messiah Complex. I think you're better off in the long run with G.S. especially since you can play them from hand for the effect.

What Homer said; your odds of improving and getting closer to blues you need are just as likely as passing up the vital ones. Government sponsership usually nets you 1.5 characters, and gives you the affiliation needed for First Class.

This compares directly to SRA (only good if you rally or have lots of replacement effects; see Illuminati or my LoA/JLA for good uses of it). Underground is fine for hiding guys, but really only beast (and after 5 iceman) would you want to do hiding. So they're certainly not as good.

I used to play Mr. F, and the reality is 5 power does suck in curve vs curve. He is the nut high vs Exiles. I also ran into issues with Mobilize when I failed to teamup; he is better than Emma, but not by much, and for those reasons, I keep her around.

As to 8 search, I mean, that's my standard for curve decks. The reality is that curve generally isn't too flexible; you miss a drop, you're in a lot of trouble. You need a LOT to fix this, and STTG only counts as half of a tutor for you (without Messiah it does absolutly nothing). You could cut STTG down to 3, but you need a lot of search to keep a curve deck running smoothly. You don't want to go into a tourney expecting to drop 2 matches to "whatever" just because you can't hit drops. My last PC curve deck (Doom clones) I ran 10 AND a ton of tutor searches, because I didn't want to screw up and miss a drop.

Consistancy and flexibility are trademarks of off-curve, which is why those decks usually do better in the long-term. Xfactor does have some good drops though, which makes it a contendor to rereise curve; and it has shown to have the best weapons thusfar vs exiles. But you need to hit your cards.

I agree with everything you said, and have never run into a problem like this. But honestly? Switching to SRA REALLY helped. Since SttG/Messiah is a 2-part combo, running past 1 of them using Government Sponsored means you can't pull it off, which effectively limits you to 4 searchers. This also prevents you from using Messiah Complex as a life-gaining measure, which is part of its intent. SRA still lets you see an extra card but doesn't restrict you from blowing past something crucial.

I don't think either are perfect, and maybe its just annoyance talking, but blowing past searchers with Government Sponsored and STILL not getting the drops I need makes me wonder why I'm playing so many searchers.

Great point about "from the hand," btw.

EDIT: I wrote about all of this before I saw EvilDave's post. One of you I can disagree with, but both of you? I'll go ahead and start testing Dave's builds before making any changes to the above. It's just a shame to not have room for more "stuff."

I third the Gov Spon issue, I've had this discussion regarding other sifts, no matter what you pass by you have to think you wouldn't have seen it anyway. You randomized your deck ahead of time, and the sift is just helping you wiedle it down.

Cyclops is dead on my 4, against any off-curve he is a terra, maybe curve on curve he might pale a little, but Syrin sings few songs it seems unless she's what you've designed for, the two three points from a Cyclops stun is more than the burn to me.

Of course looking back on your build the cheese might stand alone, and that wouldn't work well, maybe Jean Grey, if planned for she will draw you a card or two a turn with energize.

I think the hardest thing to get past is the experience of saying "OH! If I hadn't GS'd this turn, I'd have drawn the combo!" But you will never have an opportunity to say "Boy! I sure am glad I GSd! It thinned my deck and improved my chance of drawing the combo in my hand!" :grin::grin:

I completely understand the stigma of shooting over a topdeck, but when you look at the overall impact of a card on a deck, you're going to see the benefit.

I think, if you were to keep track of the stats, you'll see that you both rally over the top of a blue a similar number of times that you also got 1.5 turns closer (since you see 3 cards) to a blue you need.

Good luck with the build btw. I hope our scents ( :rolleyes: ) are helping?

Interesting discussion. I am also building an X-Factor deck, but I'm still trying to figure out which characters to go with. I am definitely running MEX Nightcrawler on 4, though. Go ahead, look him up. I'll wait. Uh-huhn. I think that's what you call Exiles tech... I just have to make him big enough to not get stunned back. Oh, and I like Wolverine on 5 for those hidden guys...

And EvilDave - Have you considered that Beast may be useless in a field full of Shifted Calibans?