We have been infected. The mechanics are solid:

http://marvelsuperstars.wordpress.co...el-superstars/

I love it.

So I had a few concerns and thoughts about this game coming up I thought ild bring up, maybe get your input Stu and anyone else. I've been following the development of news on this, and am somewhat worried about.

I know they are trying to reach out to a more ''massmarket'' audience, but really how much more can any sort of Cardgame get? YGO has a cartoon and a perfect setup to continually bring in the kid crowd, which is a big factor in why its done so well. Magic appeals to the fantasy, card playing, competitive crowd. VS always seemed to appeal to the Competitive and Comic Book fan crowd.

Personally I always enjoyed VS because it seemed much less likely to lose to some bad luck like Magic. No land screw, no mulligan penalty, topdecks wars reduced via 2 card draw turns. Just a game where it seemed more likely that the better person wins more often than the lucky one. I can understand how that can intimidate new players, and maybe in that way the learning curve was high.

I always thought that VS flaw was that a lot of the better teams or strategies were nonthemed, combo, or from lesser known characters. For instance X Men were not top tier teams last time I was playing (around Galactus), and so a fan of X Men goes ''Whoa! There is this game their in, ill make a Wolverine deck!'' But after they got all their cards got stomped and find out its not very competitive.

In that way I'm seeing promise with this game, you pick a hero, like Ironman, and make a strong theme around them. I can see that being a good way to better intrigue and interest Superhero fans.

Here are my primary concerns :

1. Gameplay. I'm worried about an overly simplified game. That the game in attempting to be more appealing to more people, becomes too easy. I've always thought TCGs can't get away with it like other mediums, simply because TCG gamers tend to be more discerning, and less willing to except dumbed down gameplay. YGO gets away with this due to a younger demographic.

Maybe VS learning curve was too high, but I'm worried Upperdeck is now shooting for the lowest denominator making it too easy. Admittitly I've not seen enough of the game to really judge that, but the following aspect is what leads me to worry about it.

2. Art direction. If they are using exclusivley movie stills for the artwork, that sounds like a disaster for some characters. For Ironman, sure it works, because his movie and costume were good. What about Dr.Doom or the F4 though whose movie likenesses are terrible? I mean a still of Dooms terrible look in those movies would be awful. Or what about the recent Wolverine and using the awful look of Deadpool in the second half? It just seems that using the movie likenesses instead of comic art greatly limits its appeal to comic fans.

Or what about characters who have yet to have movies? It would seem we get an extremely limited pool of characters and art without Comic art. Particularly because I'm sure all the movie likeness licensing is a nightmare since variuous studios hold the them. Sony with Spiderman, Fox with XMen and F4, etc. For instance Captain Americas movie hasn't been released yet, do we wait 2 years to have him in the game?

Maybe I'm wrong and they will include both, Movie and Comic art. I would prefer they use comic art for any characters in a non Marvel Studio movie. Those have been the ones that are closest to the characters designs and spirit than any other. The Ironman movie is good in part because its clear how much love and respect the creators gave it, they stayed true the original design and didn't put a crappy Hollywood spin on things.

If its ONLY movie stills, and thus characters currently available in movies, I can't see this game being any good. Who does it appeal to? The casual moviegoing public? They won't go to a local comic / hobby shop to play, doesn't seem likely. There is too much of a ''nerdy/geek'' stigma attached to card games, warrented or not, and I don't think that audience is interested in a game like this. Comic Book fans would be allienated by the lack of Comic art, and possibly turned off by inclusion of Movie Stills where the characters and story from subpar representations of some characters (Deadpool/Punisher/F4, etc.). TCG fans would be turned off if the difficulty curve is too low.

Again I might be jumping the gun on some of these details without knowing everything, but as it stands I'm not convinced, and right now am concerned who they are trying to even to target, I'm not sure who right now.

Thoughts? Flame on.

My exact worries put quite well.

1. They announced a World Championship today:

http://marvelsuperstars.wordpress.co...view-part-one/

2. All other bets are off.

I have every confidence that they understand all your concerns. I know for sure they will make a good game. I will be there for the World Championships, no matter what.

I hope to see EVERYONE there!

Yeah, I originally had the same worries Cmo did, but I agree with stu. UDE's not just gonna halfheartedly throw money into any idea that seems like it might work, especially now that their main cash cow Yu-Gi-Oh isn't gonna make them any money anymore.

I'm absolutely positive whatever concerns you brought up, like moviegoers not wanting TCGs or movie-stills being too corny, were all brought up by their market researchers as well. They wouldn't put this much work/money into it if they didn't do their research and make sure they can attract enough players to make a return and keep the game going long-term.

If that doesn't put your mind at ease, then remember: As much as you've lost faith in their ability to make a good card game, UDE brought us VS in the first place.

Maybe I don't have faith that they will do this right. They brough us VS sure, but they also took it away as well eh?

Every piece of news I see tells me their just selling out to the lowest possible crowd. Stu said there is no Stack in a recent post, what kind of crap is that? I just see every kind of somewhat difficult decision being removed, and the game turning into a lucksac game like YGO you know? UDE record over the past couple years isn't that good. Lose YGO, drop VS, etc.

Now all I see is them getting desperate and making a game that tries to appeal to everyone, and in the process will lose the competitness and challenge that the TCG realm of games brings. No matter what they do, the normal casual person will never come play cards in a shop, the stigma attached is too great.

And it certainly isn't going to attract any Magic players by dumbing itself down either. People have been giving Wizards a hard time for recent Magic rules changes, but the removal of the stack which even YGO has seems awful. I know I haven't seen enough, but right now they have to prove to me its a good idea. I don't mind change, but the direction I see this going seems like uber casual and dumbed down. In that case no thanks.

Dude, there will be an uber casual dumbed down World Champion.

The reason they took away Vs. System? It was too hard for the masses.

I still see plenty strategy. I already see a swarm deck on my horizon.

And, I see a way to get a lot more people playing a Trading Card Game. Not just us hardcore degenerates, but a LOT more people.

Maybe VS was too hard. I think its closer to the game removed a lot of luck elements that TCG normally have. This translated to a game where it was harder for a casual player to win via luck, and it appeared harder because the better player won more often than not. Is the only solution to make the game too easy? Or worse too luck based?

Magic is a game with room for both hardcore and casual players. Maybe VS was too hard for most people, but the casual audience isn't a sustainable buisness model without the hardcore base or more competitive fanbase is it? Casuals buy packs, but hardcores buy boxes. Wizards knows this which is why they cater to both.

I'm not saying keep it uber hardcore, but this game seems to be in the opposite direction, making it unappealing for the normal Hobby Shop goer to get involved in. And If they are not interested, when the casual person comes for a visit to the shop, and none of the regulars want to play, how long will they keep playing?

I'm not trying to be a downer, but a binder full of VS cards, and a box full of decks nobody wants to play at my local shop has dampered my outlook on any efforts by UDE at this point. They might prove me wrong, but everything I'm learning about this game seems to confirm its not a game the normal player is going to like, and certainly won't win over any Magic players.

VS was the better game than Magic, but the thing that makes Magic a pick over anything else for me is that the cards won't be worthless in 5 years. Its a sure thing, and I see any new card game as a gamble.

I don't believe a non hobby shop going person will ever touch this game. I'm asking Stu, who does it target? TCG are far more expensive than fueling a WoW videogame, or video game hobby. That's why reliability and sustainable audience are important, because the investment is large. If I spend hundreds on cards it needs to last a long time.

Does it target the movie goer? I mean how would they advertise this? I just don't see commercials as say being in front of Iron Man 2 next year. It could do commercials at younger viewers but YGO basically already has them locked up.

I just don't believe there is an audience or market for a purely casual game that can't appeal to the more hobby shop going crowd. Or at least not a sustainable one.

This is almost backwards. "Hardcores," as you put it, don't buy boxes. They buy singles. For all games, a majority of product sales come from the casual crowd. It is far more important to court them than the "hardcores." UDE learned this the hard way, unfortunately. They already made a game that catered to competitive players. Remember how well that plan went?

I also think you are SEVERELY underestimating how much the average hobby-store customer will enjoy this game. Several gameplay elements, including the smooth flow of combat, the elimination of the stack, and even the reintroduction of resource cards, are all things that would appeal to a majority of players in that demographic.

I believe Marvel Superstars will be a solid product.

I've always felt that VS real fatal flaw was that it wasn't marketed well. My local shop I goto to play Magic, sometimes I bring my VS decks to show them, they all seem to think it's a cool game, but before i came in not one of them ever heard of the game before. This came from both more competitive players, and the people just looking to have a good time.

I think a game like this has to find a balance. VS may have been to hardcore, but Magic is pretty hardcore too yet finds a way to be rather successful. YGO has the Casual / Kid market. Wizards R&D has 3 profiles of people who play their game, and why. You may be familiar with the concept of "Spike" "Jimmy" and "Timmy". They identify the types of people who play their game, and try to make cards for all of them. Timmy likes big cards, with big monsters, and swinging for lots of numbers weather its a "good" card or not. Jimmy likes to find combinations and card interactions most people don't consider. He likes combo's and being creative. Spike is the competitive player that picks cards for being cheap, efficient, and enjoys tournaments and things of that nature.

I just don't see this game converting anyone who plays Magic in my shop. Maybe the people who play the other sort of games (Warhammer, D&D, etc.) might try it. It might be popular with the casual crowd, but I honestly don't think there really is a large crowd for that with TCG. Someone sees some cool Marvel cards at say Wal-Mart, they buy them and try to find somewhere to go play. They find their local shop where Magic is the predominant game and try to play with others. What happens then? The Magic players test it out, find they don't like it's depth or how much luck is involved (worse than mana screw) and don't adopt. The Marvel player goes on to have nobody to play with, and quits.

I just think the stigma of Card / Comic / Hobby shops is too great to overcome with a Mainstream audience. This genre of game tends to draw in highly intelligent and competitive people. Normal people won't give any sort of "Card Game" a chance, no matter how easy it is because all they see is a Nerd label attached to it. If I'm wrong here, and this game really takes off next year, I'll even apologize, but I don't think there is a market for a purely casual game with no appeal to the normal Hobby Shop goer. I'm not saying entirely focus on them, but give Spike something.

More hardcore players might buy Singles, but for those singles to exist frequently shops bust boxes and put them on sale. At my store, when the last Magic set came out, of the 30 or so people who play, a handful of us (5-8) bought much more than the people who only play occasionally. I bought a Box, a set of Uncommons / Commons (which had to come from busted packs), and a handful of singles I thought would be a valuable investment. I can't find the article, been searching, but on Wizards website they had an article to this effect and direction in July. The statement of Casuals buy packs, Core players buy Boxes is a statement I ripped from their article about it. They know that you need to have both to be sustainable.

At the very least, if this game has no appeal to the Spike / Core / Hardcore / Competitive player, than at least we should know at the outset of this thing. I don't mind playing Casual Magic / VS, but I have to know that the cards I put that kind of investment into are going to be around for the long haul, and that the game is able to also play to that part of me that likes competition. Otherwise Zendikar is in October.

This problematic sentence illustrates why exactly you may believe Marvel Superstars won't be successful. The normal Hobby Shop customer IS a casual player. Competitive players are the minority, especially when it comes to sales. As such, I believe that taking steps to please the casual player will lead Marvel Superstars to success.

However, I don't believe the strategy has just been thrown out the window. The combat system alone seems very interesting. Even something as basic as knowing when to swing with your leader vs when to hold him back to protect your allies is a nice tactical decision that players will have to deal with. Also, it seems to me that the timing system will necessitate the ability to think ahead and determine what your opponent might do at all times, since you'll no longer have the crutch of "I'll just do this in response."

I'm also curious as to why you think Marvel's resource system is worse than Magic's when a) starting with three resources helps to mitigate mana screw, b) having the cities give a useful additional bonus helps mitigate mana flood and c) there's no color screw. Seems like it has Magic's system beat on all counts.

I'm concerned the lack of a Stack is going to greatly reduce decisions, interactions, and depth of tactics. If you don't have to make too many choice, or if the right ones are too obvious, the game boils down to less skill and more luck. Again have not seen enough of the game, but lack of any kind of a Stack is disheartening for me.

There is still the lingering problem of potential characters. The interview that went up recently also described that ALL cards are taken from Marvel movies, and like I posted above, that would seriously reduce the number of possible characters and teams this game can use. Teams/Characters that wont be possible using only properties currently existing in movies:

Captain America
Thor
Thunderbolts
Masters of Evil
Avengers (Without Captain America or Thor..... yet.)
Sentinels (Never see one in the X-Men movies)
Luke Cage
Iron Fist
Ms.Marvel
Penance
Many of the Relevant characters in Civil War
Many of the Relevant characters in Dark Reign
Cable
Bishop
Apocalypse
Hercules
Doctor Strange
Hank Pym
Skrulls
She-Hulk
Onslaught
Thanos
Loki
Kang
Sub Mariner
Sentry

Some of these could be resolved if they use the Marvel Animated Movies (The Avengers / Doctor Strange). I don't think that's the direction their going in though, so probably not.

Many of the characters that ARE available via movie likenesses, look awful. For instance Juggernaut looked quite awful. Deadpool we never see him represented in proper costume in the movie, etc. It just seems there is a very big lack of quality Costumes / Likenesses for them to use. Marvel Studios has been doing a wonderful job of making good Superhero movies with Iron Man / The Hulk, and Thor and Captain America in a few years here, but most studios miss the mark by alot. The last Fantastic Four is a pretty good example (Cloud Galactus, somehow the Surfer kills him, Doom looked bad in both. Really the entire F4 movies).

Most of the Marvel Characters in movies have looked cheesy, far off from their comic likenesses, or paid little to no respect by the studios. Captain America and Thor won't be available for 2 years. I always hope that Marvel could get back the rights to all the characters different studios have (Spiderman, X-Men) so that they can start over and do them better.

Apart from just a gameplay and player point of view, the available art and characters is also a problem. For instance I love Juggernaut as a character, and always looked for ways to play him, but the Movie likeness of him is pretty bad.

That's is not true. The Danger Room session at the beginning of Last Stand has a big Sentinel that got killed by a Fastball Special, and there is a big amount of outtakes of it that never made the film.

Avengers, Thor, Captain America are right around the corner.

I understand your concern, but Star Wars did really well with only three movies at the time. This will be just fine.

Star Wars is different. The original trilogy has all the lore you ever need to make a large game universe. Conversely this game is going to be very limited for quality character representations.

Spiderman
Ironman
Hulk
XMen 1 & 2
Blade

Off the tip of my head those are the only decent movies they could use. Bad representation to use, but will be because options are limited:

Fantastic Four
Daredevil
Elektra
Punisher
X Men (The costumes looked like a kidnergardener made them)

I get the feeling their gonna do things like have a picture of the Galactus Cloud and call it Galactus. That's just horrible. I just don't see a good reason to limit to just movies. At least they should fill in gaps like Captain America with comic shots. So now its got costumes and likenesses that are likely to turn off the fans of the characters who were mistreated in some of these films. I'm a pretty big Juggernaut fan, and The Last Stand was such an epic failure. They took one of the best available comic arcs (Dark Phoenix) and totally messed it up. I can only hope someday Marvel gets the rights back and maybe does Apocalypse.

The movie stills purely without comic book suppliments is a bad idea.

I understand your opinion, but I disagree strongly. Meet me here next summer, and you will see how successful this game will be.

I have a big pool of data to pull from: my students. They will love this game. Most of them only know the characters from the movies.

And, as I have said before, the common girl can relate to Hugh Jackman and Robert Downey Jr. much better than their comic book couterparts.

We shall see...