Hi there!

I'd like to talk about a very odd trend I've been seeing that I'm assuming is called oversaturation.

Who here has noticed that there have been 2 Fantastic Four sets within roughly 6 months of each other?

I get it, they just got the rights to start releasing our iconic and favorite superpowered family again after nearly a DECADE. But c'mon, there's already an Avengers/FF combo set coming out before the year's over?

Why is this important?

Well...
I had the pleasure of participating in a great thread (https://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=834357) that talked about the incredibly problematic nature of Wizkids aggressively playing frisby between literally 3 keywords/themes they love, and creating a new way to make one or two pieces with said keyword absolutely stacked power-wise.

That's one of many issues with heroclix, and plays only a moderate role in the larger problems that plague our favorite company, Wizkids. But y'know what really grinds my gears? That I LOVE the Fantastic Four, but I DO NOT want more Fantastic Four sets this soon.

Let me explain.

The Fantastic Four is not the Avengers, or the X-Men. They don't have a million one-shot characters for Heroclix to make commons out of, and they definitely don't have the media popularity power to keep making more FF sets. But given the popularity of those sets so far, and given the trend of Wizkids bleeding properties dry until they don't sell cases anymore, we might keep getting them. Or we might not, hopefully.

But THIS IS THE PROBLEM. What's the point of playing if there's not consistent support for my favorite characters? You want to keep players??? Then start bringing the characters they really want, and try to resurrect the ones that haven't been seen in a mighty long time.

Make sets that aren't explicitly tied to whatever's currently going on in comics, because (I may be wrong so forgive me) as far as I can tell, we aren't huge fans of what's come out in the last 5 years.

I liked FF because it reminded me of what sets looked like when I was first getting into the game around 2016. The Flash set, Nick Fury and the Agents of Shield, general themes that had a long range of characters from different time periods. You had Jay Garricks with JSA and modern-ish versions, you had Kingdom Come Flash which to this day is still absurdly beautiful, and you had Nick Fury with two gigantic Watcher eyes that stared into your soul at night even when your Heroclix box was in your closet behind 2 layers of oversized sweatshirts.

That FF set made me happy, and I got some great pieces from the set that I really love. God Emperor Doom is insanely unnecessary but I love how unmistakably overpowered he is because I just love that iteration of Doom so much. The Future Foundation set did that even more, with characters that were literally from the golden age like Blackbeard and chase Dr. Doom. That was amazing!

I'm ranting, and frankly self-indulging, but it's because I care.
I made my first account on this about 3 years ago, and I've lost access to it but back then I was pretty stupid. I'm glad I have a fresh start because it lets me try and interact with the community in a way I never could back then, and see if maybe you guys feel the same way.

I don't want an Avengers set every year. I don't want a Fantastic Four set, a Thor set, even an obscure theme like Outsiders, every year. I want you to pace yourself, Wizkids. Take your time and make sets that feel like you remember what made us love this game in the first place. Give us relevant versions of characters we haven't seen in years like Doomsday, Vision, Lantern Corps (WW chases excluded for obvious reasons), Doom Patrol (thank you Rebirth sorta), and Justice League Dark.

(Small note: the themes I just mentioned all have excellent new content to draw from/popularity like HBO's Doom Patrol, and they can be included in a variety of general set ideas.)

I haven't seen a Matt Murdock Daredevil piece in 2 years despite him being incredibly popular from the also incredibly popular Netflix series, maybe fix that? I don't need another Iron Man super rare (there's been 3 Iron Man SRs and 2 Iron Man Chases since the last MM Daredevil that's not a convention or LE) when there literally hasn't been a MM Daredevil super rare at all, in the history of heroclix.

I'm repeating the same old, so I'll stop myself here. I hope you liked it, and if you didn't, like me know why. I'd like to get both sides of the argument and see what you guys think about Heroclix's selection over time.

Until Next Time!

Godspeed,
Vegas.

Yep, definitely agree with all that.

My suspicion is that although Wizkids says on paper that it's trying to appeal to newcomers and court new crowds, it's still making sets the way they used to: sets timed to coincide with movie/TV releases or sets to capitalize on major comic arcs. The implication there is that newcomers will buy whatever, but old players will only buy variations on characters they know or that are currently popular.

...but I think the problem is that with superheroes being more popular than ever in the mainstream, you need to have a base set of the major characters readily available. It's crazy to me that there wasn't a base set of the Avengers and their major villains constantly on shelves and in big box marts. From THE AVENGERS (2012)-onward, every day they didn't was money lost.

I think the reason we haven't seen Marvel Knights-ish characters in awhile is they were all produced for Netflix by Marvel Television (not Marvel Studios), and after shows like Iron Fist s*** the bed and Feige assumed greater control at Marvel, there was no need to promote them; they hadn't wanted those characters in that form.

I assume that the issue at DC is complicated rights and royalties, especially with all the executive shakeups they've had because of WB's repeated corporate sales, not to mention the continual downsizing that sped up during the pandemic's first year. I imagine that we got Wonder Woman 80th anniversary to capitalize on WONDER WOMAN 1984 (2020) and that Rebirth looked they way it did to capitalize on the Titans series.

I've heard in that past that with each set, Wizkids presents a list of characters they'd like to use to their respective company, and they get clearance from there.

--and all this is a long way of saying that Wizkids seems to be syngergizing with trends because popularity (and starved audiences in Fantastic Four's case) are reliable for sales.

All that aside, I'd like a model that served me well. Assuming that every set would still have a smattering of the major Avengers, X-Men, Justice League, Teen Titans, whatever, I'd like to see themed blocks. Four to Six sets per year split evenly between the big two would be ideal -better if two of the six were Wizkids original IP sets. One set might be Marvel Horror; the next DC Cosmic; or maybe the sets share a theme like "all the best villains."

Admittedly, that's because at present, I'm rarely interested in buying boosters. It's not from boredom with the game; far from it. I'm just not seeing my favorite characters getting regularly dialed. I'm generally fine with that, as it just means the pieces I have see more frequent play. As long as the next iteration of the character feels sufficiently like them, I'm happy, but I digress.

As to the Fantastic Four stuff? I know they're plenty popular with those who've been starved for them. I'm happy for them, and in the meantime, I'll just wait for sets that are more my jam and vote with my wallet.

I actually kinda like the that sets are overlapping in the same modern blocks. It gives a wide birth of figures and teams to build on that have sysnergy and relevant power levels to one another. I dig that HOX and Rise and Fall play really well together. Same to be said for F4 and 4F. Im not a huge FF fan but I like that I have more than one set to look at that isnt years older just to find a character with the right point value to slip onto a team.

That said, I do miss the diversity and selection but I miss it more on the TMNT and Indy type properities. They mix it up for me. I was really sick of Avengers and honestly, I dont think DC has the character selection, fan interest, or depth that Marvel does to sell multiple sets well every year.

Some burning questions Ive asked at Fan Celebrations at cons and learned that some things are out of Wizkids control like total autonomy on set rosters or how difficult or more expensive it is to have DC sets by comparison which is probably why we get 1 a year or so. Also, they used to run on a very lean staff until Heroclix provided enough revenue to experiement with other games and lines. I was told they simply dont have the bandwidth to have more than one Indy type line going at once. Wizkids is a fairly incompetent marketer with a great game unfortunately. Theyre clearly trying new things so that's something...for better or worse.

It's called "pump and dump" they're trying to unload all the stuff under the old rules so it retires faster and increase the amount of product under the new rules so there is more of it to cover the retiring sets

People have said this a few different ways, but the main problem is being limited to one DC set a year, thus we keep seeing more of the same Marvel properties over and again. Avengers-Spidey-XMen and now F4. I guess they could venture out with a Dr Strange/Midnight Sons set, but best they save that for the next Strange movie or Blade relaunch.

I'm not sure how much Empyre will add, F4 wise. Looks like it has a Guardians sub-theme, a Young Avengers sub theme (I hope?), Kree and Skrulls, plus Avengers.

Otherwise, by chance, today was a team building day for me, dedicated to building F4 teams for the first time. I've sparsely read any of those comics, but two of my favorite Marvel characters are Silver Surfer and She-Hulk. Thus, more F4 just adds options for me to build around those characters.

The lack of DC is a problem for me and many players.

When it comes to Marvel, I like the storyline sets if they are done correctly.

I think it is the best way to have remakes without feeling like they are remakes (when done right).

One thing I will say I have liked is the reduction of so much sculpt reuse, the improved bases the sculpts are standing on, and the larger sizes. Having back to back Starjammers, for me, was a big letdown.

I still need to get more villains. CAAV was a great set for this and I wish to see more. And Alpha Flight - I really need to get new versions of Shaman, Puck, Northstar, Aurora, and Guardian at the very least.

I mean i honestly want to see more licensing over anything else, marvel/dc fatigue is setting in. I'm hoping for a lot more Star Trek and WWE in the coming year. I can only imagine the reason we have been flooded with xmen and FF is because those sets sell the best.

I dont think Eternals is going to do well since nobody really knows much about them, i'm also not convinced the movie is going to be any good either.

I didn't know about Wizkids' marketing and licensing issues, but this makes a lot of sense now.

I like the point value variations especially in the recent sets too, but I'd be lying if I said I was completely thrilled with each take on the characters from their respective values. Then again, I can't complain because a majority of the ones I dislike aren't exactly super rares.

Variation would be pretty radical, at this point I'd take anything from Judge Dredd to Invincible. Whether either is possible, I have no idea.

The only disagreement I have is that there's a lot of characters outside these group themes like X-Men and Fantastic Four, that don't fit into these sets and therefore are never represented. Unless you're a mutant or a semi-close associate of the FF over the years, you've gotta hope for a great generalized set like JLU or CAAV.

Overall I can't complain that much because really there's been a lot of good representation in the last few years of characters I could never even have imagined beforehand (I'm looking at you crimson avenger).

I notice we get repeat characters too close also, like callisto in x-men animated, and in rise and fall. Both are good, but i consider her a minor character, and would rather have unclixed characters sprinkled in more often.

They are trying to just put out as many figures as they can to take advantage of the fact they made everything pre 2020 basically obsolete with the new rules. And for that, they lost me as a customer.

Are you trying to tell me you don't need two sets of Star Jammers inside a year?

I just want more ways to buy the product I want. They've really alienated me with the size increase and the new, ham-fisted rules. I'm on a singles basis right now, and I just do not get any enjoyment from cracking boosters for the hell of it.

In my opinion, they should use that online store to develop and sell a whole line of marquee figures. Cutting down set size, too, could be a way to make each set a better, more balanced (in terms of gameplay and distribution) product too.

You guys are all forgetting one important thing regarding the lack of diversity: sculpted reuse and mold costs. I was told a long time ago that the most expensive thing in this game to produce is the initial mold cost of a figure. Because of how molds work, they sometimes need to make multiple molds for a character to get a specific dynamic action pose.

So what Wizkids does to keep costs down is they try and reuse these molds each set as much as they can and whenever they can. This is why you see so many sculpts being reused. It's also much easier to reuse these sculpts in sets with the same or similar-looking characters. Keep in mind entire sculpts don't need to be fully reused. If you look close enough at some of these figures, you'll notice smaller reuses- an arm pose here, a leg pose there, different placement of the same energy blast, and a recoloring of a flowing cape, etc.

This is a fantastic inclusion.

I agree completely, and I'd like to add a bit of my own:

Sculpt reuses would look significantly less 'cheap' if they put more effort into the post-mold coloring/illustrating process. I recall my first prime, Ravager from the TT set, he wasn't that much different from the Deathstroke non-prime counterpart. But the way they patterned his different colors made him look significantly different from Deathstroke in a way that I always loved and valued as a collector.

Compared to, say, War Machine/Punisher War Machine or Isaiah Bradley/Josiah X, it just feels like they look relatively similar when you put them side-by-side in a way that makes me not really care about the sculpt difference. Same black between both, same blue, only minor changes. I wouldn't know which was which unless I knew the characters well beforehand, tbh.

TL;DR
Coloring matters, a lot.

I hadn't thought of this before, but more of a market towards singles wouldn't be a bad idea.

I really enjoyed the Fantastic Four Deep Cuts, and I bought Mr. Fantastic with Dr. Doom when I saw them at a comic book shop. I got what I wanted and I didn't need to go through troll and toad or eBay.

The only concern I have with this idea is that it might take the fun away for newer players who can't afford/don't have the desire to slap down a 20 for a SR. I got my first prime through a random TT booster, and he (prime Ravager) served me really well. It introduced me to a few new mechanics and it was a huge joy to know I randomly got a great piece.

Boosters aren't doing great or are they worth the price at all right now, but I'd be remiss to say that it's irrelevant or should be replaced, honestly.

Considering how expensive boosters are and how much of a toss-up it is to get what you want -especially if your interests are niche- I'd prefer it if I knew what I was getting in each booster.

Like, an entire set divided into an equivalent of Fast Forces. An X-Men booster; a Starjammers booster; a Brotherhood booster; an acolytes booster; generics booster; etc. Erases the need for rarity and the related point value swing; cuts down on common scrum; would improve collation; and would provide better metrics on what players want.